'16 Big Turbo Golf R running Ethanol Blend

MSH

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Hi BITOG Members,

First post on BITOG, but I'm a long time/occasional lurker over the past 15+ yrs. I see there was a recent post for a '19 Golf R with some recommendations, but that car sounds like it is stock and the factory fill oil is a different, lighter weight on the newer gen Golf R's vs the older mk7 Golf R's like mine (2016). Factory fill on the 2016's is 5w-30 or 5w40. My car has roughly 37k miles. Been running Castrol 0w-40 since I purchased the car in April 2019 @ 29.5k miles. My R is a 2nd car which is reason behind the lower annual (4k/yr miles) mileage. Previous older (60yr+) owner was 2nd owner and took impeccable care of the car. He purchased with 7k miles on the clock. He used Motul 5w-40 exclusively (not sure which version Motul) and was religious w/ changes at 4-5k intervals.

Although the 4-5k annual miles the car sees now is low, a good portion of those miles are hard canyon carving/spirited driving and if weren't for COVID this past year it would have seen track miles as well. The car will be definitely be seeing some lapping days this year at High Plains here in Denver area.
I tuned the car almost immediately when I purchased it and it has progressed from there. It has been on ethanol blends for fuel for the past 1.5 yrs. First on the stock turbo for a year @ E40 and now on a larger turbo @ E30-E35. I just dyno'd the car and it's @ 499whp SAE Corrected (415whp uncorrected...here in Colorado so we take power hit with the altitude). Anyway you look at it power is quite a bit over stock.

So with all this said, I know Castrol 0w-40 is held in high regard here on the forum for the most part. For my non-track/street miles is there a preferred oil vs Castrol 0w-40 to use seeing a good % of the 4k-5k annual street miles are also hard charging miles?
For track/lapping day I plan to run Motul Sport 5w-40, but have to see how my oil temps look during sessions. May run something even heavier, at least initially, since I don't have an oil cooler....yet. Some people have had good success running something like Liquimoly 10-60 for track days only on these cars. The data seems to point to a ~15 degree drop on track day oil temps in summer moving from 40w to the 60w. Our altitude definitely exacerbates cooling issues, so I do have concerns on that front.
My other concern are the ethanol blends I run on this car. Does ethanol have a negative impact on the oil over time that would necessitate more frequent oil changes?
Thanks in advance for any input/recommendations you all can provide!
 
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109
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I would run a 5w50 MOBIL 1 or something similar. You need to change your oil more frequently when using any ethanol blends. Since you are running more than stock power you should probably be thinking about a heavier grade anyway. Try a 5w50 and get an UOA, then consider a 10w60. Below is worth a read but i have seen this in my experience as well.

 
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Richmond, VA area
I'd say for your daily use even if it's hard, with your upgrades and e-blend, the Castrol your'e using is just fine especially with a 4-5K change interval. Have you ever gotten a UOA to see how the viscosity looks after your change? I was going to post the same article as above re e-blends on their impact on your oil. I drive a VW Golf Sportwagen tuned for ~2x the stock power level with running the stock Golf R IS38 turbo, E25 blend, and generally drive it hard most of the time and haven't see an issue with the oils I have used (Liquimoly Leichtlauf and Molygen 5W40) but have recently given Mobil 1 0W40 a whirl. I have tracked my car as well and did see on that change that the Molygen looked a bit more sheared than I would like and the advice I've been given here is to run the 5W50 M1 or heavier Liquimoly product for track use - I think running that for daily use is overkill.
 
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I'd say for your daily use even if it's hard, with your upgrades and e-blend, the Castrol your'e using is just fine especially with a 4-5K change interval. Have you ever gotten a UOA to see how the viscosity looks after your change? I was going to post the same article as above re e-blends on their impact on your oil. I drive a VW Golf Sportwagen tuned for ~2x the stock power level with running the stock Golf R IS38 turbo, E25 blend, and generally drive it hard most of the time and haven't see an issue with the oils I have used (Liquimoly Leichtlauf and Molygen 5W40) but have recently given Mobil 1 0W40 a whirl. I have tracked my car as well and did see on that change that the Molygen looked a bit more sheared than I would like and the advice I've been given here is to run the 5W50 M1 or heavier Liquimoly product for track use - I think running that for daily use is overkill.
Yep that's fair enough, but there is only a benefit by going up a grade (extra protection), there isn't any downside, because turbo and ethanol fuel. It's good insurance. You might lose 1 HP. I have a turbo barra (google it) with 530rwhp on premium unleaded. And, you wont believe me 650+rwhp on e85. There are some built turbo barras over here running over 1000rwhp on e85 and they are using 25w70 engine oil.
 
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Yep that's fair enough, but there is only a benefit by going up a grade (extra protection), there isn't any downside, because turbo and ethanol fuel. It's good insurance. You might lose 1 HP. I have a turbo barra (google it) with 530rwhp on premium unleaded. And, you wont believe me 650+rwhp on e85. There are some built turbo barras over here running over 1000rwhp on e85 and they are using 25w70 engine oil.
That's great, the R is a beast and it's nice b/c it can actually put the power down vs. the GTI - never understood folks wanting to build up a fwd GTI with big power, just not what that car is for. I don't disagree with you, running a heavier oil isn't going to hurt a thing. My car isn't anywhere like that, started at 170hp and with the IS38, bolt-ons, and software sits around 370 or so crank and would be comparable to a Stage 1 R (my Sportwagen has awd). Do you run United Motorsport's Haldex tune?
 
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interesting to see what power can be made with ethanol blends that cool + deter knock, similar to DI's added knock resistance compared to port injection. started reading the article noted above + will read it all later, but right off it notes the bad effects of ethanol blends on oils so besides more often changes heavier oils are recommended + without more searching i would guess REAL synthetic PAO + Ester oils would benefit as well. i like + use Redline Ester oils in my slightly modded 2001 TT. theres also RACING only oils for ultimate protection on track days + of course your ambient temperature in your area effects daily oil choices. sounds like a fun ride + although more costly REAL synthetics have many benefits especially in extreme conditions!! of course cars factory built for higher performance are a better choice to upgrade + as always its how much power can you afford to make + be fairly safe for the engine + drivetrain before big dollar drivetrain improvements are required.
 
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109
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Australia
170 to 370hp is a big jump still, creates more heat etc etc but the ethanol fuel is an oil killer. Our Ford XR6 Turbo's came from the factory with a 4.0L overhead cam engine and a Garrett 3582r turbo. About 330 hp at the crank, over the years everyone kept pushing them, getting up to 18psi on premium and 22-23psi on e85. Ford way over engineered the motor which was good for us. The factory engine can handle up to 800 hp at the crank and still last a long time on e85. We use to use SCT for tuning, but a Aussie company recently reversed engineered the stock programming from the factory, so we have total access to that now with PCMtec.

****Sorry @TiGeo I'm getting old haha
 
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Yeah have several issues before you even think about oil.
First of all, what coolant radiator are you using? Most people do not practically understand how straind engines are here in CO, especially on track. HPR has elevation between 4,900ft and 5,200ft. If you have stock radiator, you are definitely in trouble. I know several owners of GTI's who had issues with overheating running stock power or APR stage I on HPR. I had issues on HPR with oil temperature in my BMW and I do not have turbo and have hefty oil sump when ambient temperature creeps close to 90's. So, first thing is to get more efficient coolant radiator.
Second, oil temperature will definitely go up. You need oil cooler of some kind or heat exchanger, but dedicated cooler is way to go.
Then after all that you need to decide about oil. If your oil temperature stays around 250-260 with oil cooler, you really do not need heavy oils such as 10W60. DO not forget, heavy oils create more heat. They are better in dissipating heat at extreme temperatures, but at lower temperatures, around 210, they will send your oil temperatures higher much faster. Eventually, they become better in dissipating heat, but they also contribute to that. Bigger coolant radiator and dedicated oil cooler will eliminate need for such oil. Also, they create more resistance and will influence performance.
I personally is such vehicle would run W50 oil. Oil to go IMO is Mobil1 1 15W50. You can get Motul Sport 5W50 and Mobil1 5W50 (which has Porsche A40 and MB229.3 approvals). But, they are more expensive while M1 15W50 is $24 in local Wal Mart. You could maybe find M1 5W50 on sale in AAP with filter for $35 for 5qt. But, I think all that depends on you oil temperature. If you put really good oil cooler, that can keep your oil temperature in check, Motul 5W40 300V or 10W40 300V would be my choice as they are super strong on track, and you can run them on street in summer for up to 3-4k OCI. Motul SPort you could run definitely longer as it is more suitable for street than 300V.
 
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MSH

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I'd say for your daily use even if it's hard, with your upgrades and e-blend, the Castrol your'e using is just fine especially with a 4-5K change interval. Have you ever gotten a UOA to see how the viscosity looks after your change?.......I drive a VW Golf Sportwagen tuned for ~2x the stock power level with running the stock Golf R IS38 turbo, E25 blend, and generally drive it hard most of the time and haven't see an issue with the oils I have used (Liquimoly Leichtlauf and Molygen 5W40) but have recently given Mobil 1 0W40 a whirl......Do you run United Motorsport's Haldex tune?
Love the Sportwagens/Alltracks! If VW would have sent the Estate version of the R over here to the States I most likely would be in that car.
Are you on any of the VW specific forums? Would love to see your build if you have specs detailed on Vortex or golfmk7.
I'm literally waiting for first Blackstone analysis and should have it within the next week I imagine. My intervals have actually been closer to every 3k-ish miles since I tend to change every 6-8 months regardless of mileage on oil. Don't have the UM Haldex tune but have given it thought. I'm EQT across the board....EQT ECU/DSG Tunes (E30/91/dedicated track only tune on E30), Vortex turbo (std housing), Pagparts LPFP, FBO) I also been looking at getting a Wavetrac but I'm already deeper into this car than I planned at this point. Current plan is to wait until used M2C prices come down and then I'm going to move to that platform. The R is a better daily/all rounder vs the M2C (especially here in CO), but the M2C is going to be a much better car for track duty.

Yeah have several issues before you even think about oil.
First of all, what coolant radiator are you using? Most people do not practically understand how straind engines are here in CO, especially on track. HPR has elevation between 4,900ft and 5,200ft. If you have stock radiator, you are definitely in trouble. I know several owners of GTI's who had issues with overheating running stock power or APR stage I on HPR. I had issues on HPR with oil temperature in my BMW and I do not have turbo and have hefty oil sump when ambient temperature creeps close to 90's. So, first thing is to get more efficient coolant radiator.
Second, oil temperature will definitely go up. You need oil cooler of some kind or heat exchanger, but dedicated cooler is way to go.
Then after all that you need to decide about oil. If your oil temperature stays around 250-260 with oil cooler, you really do not need heavy oils such as 10W60. DO not forget, heavy oils create more heat. They are better in dissipating heat at extreme temperatures, but at lower temperatures, around 210, they will send your oil temperatures higher much faster. Eventually, they become better in dissipating heat, but they also contribute to that. Bigger coolant radiator and dedicated oil cooler will eliminate need for such oil. Also, they create more resistance and will influence performance.
I personally is such vehicle would run W50 oil. Oil to go IMO is Mobil1 1 15W50. You can get Motul Sport 5W50 and Mobil1 5W50 (which has Porsche A40 and MB229.3 approvals). But, they are more expensive while M1 15W50 is $24 in local Wal Mart. You could maybe find M1 5W50 on sale in AAP with filter for $35 for 5qt. But, I think all that depends on you oil temperature. If you put really good oil cooler, that can keep your oil temperature in check, Motul 5W40 300V or 10W40 300V would be my choice as they are super strong on track, and you can run them on street in summer for up to 3-4k OCI. Motul SPort you could run definitely longer as it is more suitable for street than 300V.

Thanks much for the input! Yup, I'm very aware of the cooling issues at altitude which I mentioned in my original post. I have my eye on a CSF radiator but going to see how things go initially using distilled water & water wetter. On oil temp front again going to see how things play out initially. There is a guy on the golfmk7 forums that tracks his S3 (essentially the exact same car as R in sedan format) at High plains and has had great success being on stock radiator and no oil cooler. He does run a iABED aluminum baffled oil pan, so he gets a bit more volume that certainly helps. He is also Stage 2 United Motorsport.
I have a ton of HPDE experience running Advanced/Instructor groups at Laguna Seca/Thunderhill/Buttonwillow from when we lived in NorCal, but that was many years ago and I was in a properly track sorted BMW M Coupe (clown shoe). So NA, RWD, and manual. The first couple events for me with the R will just be getting my feet back under me and getting use to tracking a AWD DSG(auto) car. I defintiely understand as my speeds and familiarity with this platform increase on track that I will have to make adjustments/changes. I want to start with an oil cooler as most that track this platform seem to point to going with the OC first vs the larger radiator. As I stated above I'm also trying to avoid sinking too much $ in this platform as it's a stop gap for me until M2C prices come down in a yr or two. It's just a much better platform for tracking and I honestly miss RWD and manual tranny.
I should mention that I did have EQT (tuner and turbo I have) create a dedicated/de-tuned HPDE/track map that has much lower boost, richer AFR, and dialed back timing vs my street maps, because I've been so concerned about the cooling challenges on track (especially here at altitude)
 

MSH

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Yup thanks. Both the ones I'm looking at...especially the RL OC. Guys have been modifying the RL OC a bit with larger 13-19 row Setrabs since the RL is only 10 row.
 
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how do you compensate(correct) for altitude with a turbo car vs a NA car.
same formula?
I would think if its so tweaked out and making 420hp,
it might not go up as much as you would think at a lower elevation?
IE you can run more boost at altitude.
Also if its tuned so much for altitude.. will it blow if you were tracking it at a lower altitude?

Seems a pretty aggressive build.. well big toys for big boys I guess 😀
 
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1,389
Location
Richmond, VA area
Love the Sportwagens/Alltracks! If VW would have sent the Estate version of the R over here to the States I most likely would be in that car.
Are you on any of the VW specific forums? Would love to see your build if you have specs detailed on Vortex or golfmk7.
I'm literally waiting for first Blackstone analysis and should have it within the next week I imagine. My intervals have actually been closer to every 3k-ish miles since I tend to change every 6-8 months regardless of mileage on oil. Don't have the UM Haldex tune but have given it thought. I'm EQT across the board....EQT ECU/DSG Tunes (E30/91/dedicated track only tune on E30), Vortex turbo (std housing), Pagparts LPFP, FBO) I also been looking at getting a Wavetrac but I'm already deeper into this car than I planned at this point. Current plan is to wait until used M2C prices come down and then I'm going to move to that platform. The R is a better daily/all rounder vs the M2C (especially here in CO), but the M2C is going to be a much better car for track duty.
Yes, I'm a forum nerd (golfmk7 [tigeo] and vwvortex [karstgeo]) as well as part of the Alltrack/Sportwagen FB group (as well as a moderator). I have some info/stuff on my youtube channel about my car you can check out:

karstgeo 72 - YouTube

"build" thread on golfmk7 (hate that term...I didn't build anything, just upgraded it):

2018 Golf Sportwagen S 4Motion IS38 | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

The basics are $19K base model wagon purchased new in the rare/odd/little-known to the rest of the world "S 4Motion" trim. Added IS38 turbo, Unitronic Stage 2+ ECU/TCU software, downpipe, intercooler, intake plus a lot more. Just popped a 3.9 0-60 yesterday morning as well as a 12.1/113.4 1/4 mile. Take it on the track. Here she is:

20201101_165725 (1).jpg

_23A4283.JPG
 

MSH

Thread starter
Messages
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how do you compensate(correct) for altitude with a turbo car vs a NA car.
same formula?
I would think if its so tweaked out and making 420hp,
it might not go up as much as you would think at a lower elevation?
IE you can run more boost at altitude.
Also if its tuned so much for altitude.. will it blow if you were tracking it at a lower altitude?

Seems a pretty aggressive build.. well big toys for big boys I guess 😀

The "corrected" 499whp figure I gave basically provide the HP you would expect to see at sea level. I also know that it's accurate because there are many mk7 Golf R's/Audi S3's/GTIs (all basically same engine) with same mods as I have dynoing at those 15-18% higher figures that are sea level (or close to sea level) cars. On running more boost it's actually the reverse. On early tunes on this platform here in Denver guys were popping the stock turbos left and right because the tuners weren't adjusting for altitude. They had to dial back targeted boost.
On my build I'm actually pretty conservative. Many people are running MPI and full E85 on the stock block on these cars reliably. VW really overbuilt these 2.0 TSI EA888 mk7 engines to handle a **** ton of power.
 

MSH

Thread starter
Messages
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Yes, I'm a forum nerd (golfmk7 [tigeo] and vwvortex [karstgeo]) as well as part of the Alltrack/Sportwagen FB group (as well as a moderator). I have some info/stuff on my youtube channel about my car you can check out:

karstgeo 72 - YouTube

"build" thread on golfmk7 (hate that term...I didn't build anything, just upgraded it):

2018 Golf Sportwagen S 4Motion IS38 | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

The basics are $19K base model wagon purchased new in the rare/odd/little-known to the rest of the world "S 4Motion" trim. Added IS38 turbo, Unitronic Stage 2+ ECU/TCU software, downpipe, intercooler, intake plus a lot more. Just popped a 3.9 0-60 yesterday morning as well as a 12.1/113.4 1/4 mile. Take it on the track.

Man! So sweet. I have a old 4runner that I have as a daily, but would love, love to replace it with a Alltrack or GSW and tune it without going too crazy. I think my wife would kill me though. For the $ they are tough to beat...plus a big one...manual option. Noticed yours is sans the sunroof that so many have had leaking issues with. Definitely the way I would go as well.
I'm on that Alltrack/GSW facebook page and saw the build the owner of Futrell in Oregon did on his. Insane!
 
Messages
11,186
Location
Colorado Springs
Love the Sportwagens/Alltracks! If VW would have sent the Estate version of the R over here to the States I most likely would be in that car.
Are you on any of the VW specific forums? Would love to see your build if you have specs detailed on Vortex or golfmk7.
I'm literally waiting for first Blackstone analysis and should have it within the next week I imagine. My intervals have actually been closer to every 3k-ish miles since I tend to change every 6-8 months regardless of mileage on oil. Don't have the UM Haldex tune but have given it thought. I'm EQT across the board....EQT ECU/DSG Tunes (E30/91/dedicated track only tune on E30), Vortex turbo (std housing), Pagparts LPFP, FBO) I also been looking at getting a Wavetrac but I'm already deeper into this car than I planned at this point. Current plan is to wait until used M2C prices come down and then I'm going to move to that platform. The R is a better daily/all rounder vs the M2C (especially here in CO), but the M2C is going to be a much better car for track duty.



Thanks much for the input! Yup, I'm very aware of the cooling issues at altitude which I mentioned in my original post. I have my eye on a CSF radiator but going to see how things go initially using distilled water & water wetter. On oil temp front again going to see how things play out initially. There is a guy on the golfmk7 forums that tracks his S3 (essentially the exact same car as R in sedan format) at High plains and has had great success being on stock radiator and no oil cooler. He does run a iABED aluminum baffled oil pan, so he gets a bit more volume that certainly helps. He is also Stage 2 United Motorsport.
I have a ton of HPDE experience running Advanced/Instructor groups at Laguna Seca/Thunderhill/Buttonwillow from when we lived in NorCal, but that was many years ago and I was in a properly track sorted BMW M Coupe (clown shoe). So NA, RWD, and manual. The first couple events for me with the R will just be getting my feet back under me and getting use to tracking a AWD DSG(auto) car. I defintiely understand as my speeds and familiarity with this platform increase on track that I will have to make adjustments/changes. I want to start with an oil cooler as most that track this platform seem to point to going with the OC first vs the larger radiator. As I stated above I'm also trying to avoid sinking too much $ in this platform as it's a stop gap for me until M2C prices come down in a yr or two. It's just a much better platform for tracking and I honestly miss RWD and manual tranny.
I should mention that I did have EQT (tuner and turbo I have) create a dedicated/de-tuned HPDE/track map that has much lower boost, richer AFR, and dialed back timing vs my street maps, because I've been so concerned about the cooling challenges on track (especially here at altitude)
I missed you mentioned altitude.
ANyway, from what I saw at HPR, VW's do have issues with overheating. But regardless, let's say hypothetically you do not, you still want to run oil cooler. Maybe, just maybe you could get away with stock radiator. Make sure you take down belly splash shield so it can dissipate heat better.
HPR has tentative open lapping days now, on Saturday's. I would go and check how it behaves now. Another good option is to run it up the Pikes Peak. If it is open from park ranger brake check station (around 11,000ft) to the top, push it harder there and see where is your coolant temperature. If it starts going up, you definitely need bigger coolant radiator.
 
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MSH

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I missed you mentioned altitude.
ANyway, from what I saw at HPR, VW's do have issues with overheating. But regardless, let's say hypothetically you do not, you still want to run oil cooler. Maybe, just maybe you could get away with stock radiator. Make sure you take down belly splash shield so it can dissipate heat better.
HPR has tentative open lapping days now, on Saturday's. I would go and check how it behaves now. Another good option is to run it up the Pikes Peak. If it is open from park ranger brake check station (around 11,000ft) to the top, push it harder there and see where is your coolant temperature. If it starts going up, you definitely need bigger coolant radiator.
Good call and will do. It's currently up on Quickjack awaiting a variety of suspension mods (RSB installed, but still need to install coilovers (in transit), camber plates, lower control arms) and then from there new rotors, some DS2500 pads, and RS3 brake ducts.
 
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Man! So sweet. I have a old 4runner that I have as a daily, but would love, love to replace it with a Alltrack or GSW and tune it without going too crazy. I think my wife would kill me though. For the $ they are tough to beat...plus a big one...manual option. Noticed yours is sans the sunroof that so many have had leaking issues with. Definitely the way I would go as well.
I'm on that Alltrack/GSW facebook page and saw the build the owner of Futrell in Oregon did on his. Insane!
I'm Adam K. on that page.
 
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Good call and will do. It's currently up on Quickjack awaiting a variety of suspension mods (RSB installed, but still need to install coilovers (in transit), camber plates, lower control arms) and then from there new rotors, some DS2500 pads, and RS3 brake ducts.
I do not understand how R does not come with ducts? That is crazy.
 
Messages
1,389
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Richmond, VA area
The "corrected" 499whp figure I gave basically provide the HP you would expect to see at sea level. I also know that it's accurate because there are many mk7 Golf R's/Audi S3's/GTIs (all basically same engine) with same mods as I have dynoing at those 15-18% higher figures that are sea level (or close to sea level) cars. On running more boost it's actually the reverse. On early tunes on this platform here in Denver guys were popping the stock turbos left and right because the tuners weren't adjusting for altitude. They had to dial back targeted boost.
On my build I'm actually pretty conservative. Many people are running MPI and full E85 on the stock block on these cars reliably. VW really overbuilt these 2.0 TSI EA888 mk7 engines to handle a **** ton of power.
What kind of 1/4 mile time/trap do you get? To me, that's always an easy way to see what you are making in your conditions.
 
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