take a look at http://www.fdu.com/oilanalysis.htm for the results of a 15k mile test using Amsoil Series 2000 0W30 in a 99 Ford Explorer 4.0 SOHC.
15k mile results - Amsoil 0W30
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I wonder if the Silicon(dirt) caused the much higher numbers. I'd be checking the old air filter. You would have expected the viscosity to be lower in this case-no??
Patman
Staff member
I'm not trying to fuel the Amsoil war fires here, but with this report and a few other recent Amsoil results, I don't see this oil holding it's TBN very well at all. Certainly not enough to handle 25k drains. I really think Amsoil needs to change it's advertising to 15k drains instead. They are fooling themselves, only probably 5% of Amsoil users could safely go 25k.
Interesting that the Cleveland lab stated this oil was okay for continued use even though the viscocity was out of range. Between the two samples the second one really jumped on all accounts. I have a 0W30 Amsoil sample going in at the end of Dec that will have one year and about 7500 miles on it to compare to, previous year was same oil and approx mileage also.
I find it interesting that the oxidation is so low, yet the viscosity has increased...and the TBN has fallen off.
EDIT => Any explanation why the nitration decreased so radically?
The elements worry me, too.
[ November 26, 2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
EDIT => Any explanation why the nitration decreased so radically?
The elements worry me, too.
[ November 26, 2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
Was this the first run with this oil in this engine and what was your interval last time?
For some reason, the initial runs of this oil don't exactly look stellar at all. I'd be very curious to see Spector's results in Dec.
Edit: I may have looked at your report wrong. Was the same oil in use for 15K with a sample taken after 7K and the oil not changed, or is this report showing two seperate oil changes of roughly 7K miles on one page?
[ November 26, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: mdv ]
For some reason, the initial runs of this oil don't exactly look stellar at all. I'd be very curious to see Spector's results in Dec.
Edit: I may have looked at your report wrong. Was the same oil in use for 15K with a sample taken after 7K and the oil not changed, or is this report showing two seperate oil changes of roughly 7K miles on one page?
[ November 26, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: mdv ]
TS, look at my post above.. I call him and provided everyone with more info on what he had done as for air filter and such.
[ November 26, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
What Bob is talking about on TBN depletion can easily be seen by looking at a titration curve.
Looking at the generic curve below, it takes a lot of acid to go from a pH of 11.5 to 10. But once you are at 10, it only takes a few ml of acid and you are below 7.
[ November 26, 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: satterfi ]
Looking at the generic curve below, it takes a lot of acid to go from a pH of 11.5 to 10. But once you are at 10, it only takes a few ml of acid and you are below 7.
[ November 26, 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: satterfi ]
mdv, he says 15K in his post.
And I have questions, too in my post.
And I have questions, too in my post.
I called and talked with him..
Yes, it is the same oil for both analysis..
yes, he did change the air filter, thus the lower nitration levels.
He did his last analysis by changing the filter, and adding one quart of new oil back in, thus the reason why the cST's are lower in the second sample but still show higher than 30wt.
IMO, with the higher levels of SI, thus the higher levels of wear metals, the higher levels of viscosity, and the lower levels of TBN,it is past time to change this oil as it shows to be depleted. Tbn levels are kinda like a gas gauge, at first the needle stays on full for a long while, but once it starts to drop, then it falls fast, same on tbn's, the oil has antioxidants to assit on keeping the tbn levels up but once that depletes then the oil relys more on the tbn's ability thus the demand becomes harder on it as the oil ages in use. Thats why the 50% rule is good to hold by when looking at extending drain intervals, if the tbn drops 50% of starting TBN, it's time to replace as it will deplete much faster the last 50% than the first 50%.
Yes, it is the same oil for both analysis..
yes, he did change the air filter, thus the lower nitration levels.
He did his last analysis by changing the filter, and adding one quart of new oil back in, thus the reason why the cST's are lower in the second sample but still show higher than 30wt.
IMO, with the higher levels of SI, thus the higher levels of wear metals, the higher levels of viscosity, and the lower levels of TBN,it is past time to change this oil as it shows to be depleted. Tbn levels are kinda like a gas gauge, at first the needle stays on full for a long while, but once it starts to drop, then it falls fast, same on tbn's, the oil has antioxidants to assit on keeping the tbn levels up but once that depletes then the oil relys more on the tbn's ability thus the demand becomes harder on it as the oil ages in use. Thats why the 50% rule is good to hold by when looking at extending drain intervals, if the tbn drops 50% of starting TBN, it's time to replace as it will deplete much faster the last 50% than the first 50%.
Yea.. I misunderstood. In that case-pretty impressive. However 25K does seem like a reach as was mentioned before.quote:
Originally posted by Pablo:
mdv, he says 15K in his post.
And I have questions, too in my post.
OK, I understand the concept presented by the curve and I never really understood chemistry in high school. But doesn't this curve show the effect of titration using an alkaline substance on an acidic substance or do I have it bass ackwards?quote:
Originally posted by satterfi:
What Bob is talking about on TBN depletion can easily be seen by looking at a titration curve.
Looking at the generic curve below, it takes a lot of acid to go from a pH of 11.5 to 10. But once you are at 10, it only takes a few ml of acid and you are below 7.
Oil analysis labs will not normally flag viscosity as a reason to change oil unless it has thickened up by approx 25%-33%. They usually look at how much oxidation/nitration and TBN retention there is in the sample and make an overall determination if the oil is still good. TBN will normally be cited if it falls below 4.0 - at least that is my experience with Oil Analyzers and CTC.
If you are running change intervals of 20,000-35,000 miles, it is very common for the oil to thicken up to the next SAE grade, due to normal oxidation. That is why most of the very long drain oils in Europe are 0w-30 or 0w-40 grades. This way you still get decent cold temp pumping performance even with well used oil.
I would certainly change this oil, based on the overall results after 15,000 miles in this particular engine. I'd probably run some Amsoil engine flush in there as well, as this may have not been done on the initial changeover.
TS
If you are running change intervals of 20,000-35,000 miles, it is very common for the oil to thicken up to the next SAE grade, due to normal oxidation. That is why most of the very long drain oils in Europe are 0w-30 or 0w-40 grades. This way you still get decent cold temp pumping performance even with well used oil.
I would certainly change this oil, based on the overall results after 15,000 miles in this particular engine. I'd probably run some Amsoil engine flush in there as well, as this may have not been done on the initial changeover.
TS
This analysis brings up a good question for the Amsoil folks. On what basis is Amsoil stating you can go 25k or 35k (depending on the oil)miles between changes? I know they say in a "mechanically sound engine", but based on what? Is this recommendation made on their actual testing on real engines, or based on what they think their formulation can do?
Hapuna
Hapuna
The AMSOIL recommendation for extended drain is based on oil analysis on many thousands of engines over the past 30 years.
Patman
Staff member
I would never run ANY oil to 25 or 35k unless it was 95% highway driven or more. Most people could never safely go 25k on any oil, it's TBN would drop way too far unless they had added 4-5 quarts of fresh oil along the way.
It really is a joke that they recommend this and Now I know why Mobil doesn't go around boasting 25k mile drains. After 7,000 miles on certain tests that have been run, Amsoil's TBN drops significantly. Again, what type of driving conditions would allow you to go that far if chosen? It would have to be all highway with a bi-pass filter and if your not a truck driver, then forget it. Amsoil has to market themselves as different in some way and this is the only thing they can do to seperate themselves from the big boys as there oil is not leaps and bounds above M1 or other synthetics.
[ November 30, 2002, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
[ November 30, 2002, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Hapuna Beach,
Amsoil receives tens of thousands of oil analysis results every year from their customers, including all the data generated by Oil Analyzers, who is located right next door to their corporate headquarters. So they get a tremendous about of feedback on how their products are performing in actual use ....
The recommendation has always been 25k miles or one year - whichever comes first and 35k/year just for the series 2000, 0w-30. The rationale behind this is that if you are driving 25k in one year, you are most likely doing primarily highway driving. I would consider this to be ideal in terms of oil degradation. By contrast, if you only drive 10,000 miles per year, but it's all short trips, you can see more degradation than you would in 20,000 miles of cruising down the highway. So I consider the recommendation to change oil at least once a year to be much more important than the mileage interval that everyone keys in on. Certainly some of that is an advertising thing and I would not be surprised to see them shorten it somewhat, given current engine designs.
I typically have been recommending shorter drain intervals because you will get even better long term results. In addition to this, other synthetic oil companies are still recommending 3000-7500 mile drain intervals. So even with the 15,000 mile/1 year recommendation that I normally make for the Amsoil 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40 - 20k/1 year with the Series 2000 - I am still way beyond what folks expect to be able to run. I have data from a number of my personal vehicles that verifies these are reasonable drain intervals in a well running, tuned up engine in "normal" service.
From personal experience I can tell you that you can run yearly oil changes with Amsoil and get excellent long term results - I have been doing it for almost 25 years and 500,000 miles. You ARE going to get significantly more oil degradation than if you changed oil every 5000-6000 miles - I think that is a given. What I look for in an oil analysis are three things:
1) Is there any abnormal contamination - particularly from coolant or silicon?
2) Is wear being well controlled at the drain interval being used?
3) Is there enough of the detergent/dispersant additive package being retained - as reflected in the TBN - to control engine deposits and prevent corrosive wear?
If I am satisfied with the answers to these three questions, then I don't care if the oil has thinned out or thickened due to oxidation. I also don't care about the absolute levels of oxidation/nitration - unless they indicate a mechanical problem with the engine. I would certainly recommend an oil change if I think the oil is used up, but I don't get all excited if the oil has thickened up by 20% but the wear rates are acceptable. I will typically adjust the change interval based on what I've seen.
Sorry about the rant!
Ted
Amsoil receives tens of thousands of oil analysis results every year from their customers, including all the data generated by Oil Analyzers, who is located right next door to their corporate headquarters. So they get a tremendous about of feedback on how their products are performing in actual use ....
The recommendation has always been 25k miles or one year - whichever comes first and 35k/year just for the series 2000, 0w-30. The rationale behind this is that if you are driving 25k in one year, you are most likely doing primarily highway driving. I would consider this to be ideal in terms of oil degradation. By contrast, if you only drive 10,000 miles per year, but it's all short trips, you can see more degradation than you would in 20,000 miles of cruising down the highway. So I consider the recommendation to change oil at least once a year to be much more important than the mileage interval that everyone keys in on. Certainly some of that is an advertising thing and I would not be surprised to see them shorten it somewhat, given current engine designs.
I typically have been recommending shorter drain intervals because you will get even better long term results. In addition to this, other synthetic oil companies are still recommending 3000-7500 mile drain intervals. So even with the 15,000 mile/1 year recommendation that I normally make for the Amsoil 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40 - 20k/1 year with the Series 2000 - I am still way beyond what folks expect to be able to run. I have data from a number of my personal vehicles that verifies these are reasonable drain intervals in a well running, tuned up engine in "normal" service.
From personal experience I can tell you that you can run yearly oil changes with Amsoil and get excellent long term results - I have been doing it for almost 25 years and 500,000 miles. You ARE going to get significantly more oil degradation than if you changed oil every 5000-6000 miles - I think that is a given. What I look for in an oil analysis are three things:
1) Is there any abnormal contamination - particularly from coolant or silicon?
2) Is wear being well controlled at the drain interval being used?
3) Is there enough of the detergent/dispersant additive package being retained - as reflected in the TBN - to control engine deposits and prevent corrosive wear?
If I am satisfied with the answers to these three questions, then I don't care if the oil has thinned out or thickened due to oxidation. I also don't care about the absolute levels of oxidation/nitration - unless they indicate a mechanical problem with the engine. I would certainly recommend an oil change if I think the oil is used up, but I don't get all excited if the oil has thickened up by 20% but the wear rates are acceptable. I will typically adjust the change interval based on what I've seen.
Sorry about the rant!
Ted
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