Also, the probably biggest maker of PV wafers is China.
110 year payback
- Thread starter Tempest
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
Sounds like a bunch of subsidies (tax dollars taken from someone else) make it possible. Imagine if EVERYONE took advantage of this at one time. You would run out of other people's money.
You are largely correct, and the reason for the subsidies is that they are trying to encourage people down that path.
What about the fossil fired electricity industry ?
Allowed to dig up buried solar energy, burn it, using the same air that you and I breathe at no cost. Discharge plumes of pollutants off their property, while evaporation millions of gallons of water that could be used for drinking/agriculture.
To be allowed to do this, they are effectively being subsidised, and once again, by everyone else.
Sounds like a bunch of subsidies (tax dollars taken from someone else) make it possible. Imagine if EVERYONE took advantage of this at one time. You would run out of other people's money.
You are largely correct, and the reason for the subsidies is that they are trying to encourage people down that path.
What about the fossil fired electricity industry ?
Allowed to dig up buried solar energy, burn it, using the same air that you and I breathe at no cost. Discharge plumes of pollutants off their property, while evaporation millions of gallons of water that could be used for drinking/agriculture.
To be allowed to do this, they are effectively being subsidised, and once again, by everyone else.
It would be more cost effective to add a solar furnace reheat stage to part your power plant, than put up PV panels.
And you could re-sell the solar component for more, to people who contract for "green power". Ontario has lots of hydroelectric, so solar is a non starter, but it might work in your neighborhood.
One of the problems I'm seeing with green power.....
read yesterday that an investment group is looking to install wind turbines in a (rural) county about 50 miles west of Chicago. Very flat area with a good amount of wind. Problem is that locals don't want it, they think it will compromise their "suburban prairie" pristine views, etc, etc. So how the f*** are we gonna get this wind turbine thing going if everywhere it's feasible becomes a NIMBY project? Something to think about......
read yesterday that an investment group is looking to install wind turbines in a (rural) county about 50 miles west of Chicago. Very flat area with a good amount of wind. Problem is that locals don't want it, they think it will compromise their "suburban prairie" pristine views, etc, etc. So how the f*** are we gonna get this wind turbine thing going if everywhere it's feasible becomes a NIMBY project? Something to think about......
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
Subsidizing today's PV panels leads to MORE.
Competition in a free market leads to BETTER.
Tight profit margins are a very good way to stimulate creativity.
And no PV company bailouts!
Competition in a free market leads to BETTER.
Tight profit margins are a very good way to stimulate creativity.
And no PV company bailouts!
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
The 3rd Rule of Acquisition:
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
It will never be truly cheaper than NOW. Once you have to do something, the cost goes way up.
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
The 3rd Rule of Acquisition:
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
It will never be truly cheaper than NOW. Once you have to do something, the cost goes way up.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
The 3rd Rule of Acquisition:
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
It will never be truly cheaper than NOW. Once you have to do something, the cost goes way up.
words of wisdom there.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
The 3rd Rule of Acquisition:
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
It will never be truly cheaper than NOW. Once you have to do something, the cost goes way up.
words of wisdom there.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
The 3rd Rule of Acquisition:
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
It will never be truly cheaper than NOW. Once you have to do something, the cost goes way up.
That's worked out real good with ethanol....
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
The 3rd Rule of Acquisition:
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
It will never be truly cheaper than NOW. Once you have to do something, the cost goes way up.
That's worked out real good with ethanol....
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Sounds like a bunch of subsidies (tax dollars taken from someone else) make it possible. Imagine if EVERYONE took advantage of this at one time. You would run out of other people's money.
You are largely correct, and the reason for the subsidies is that they are trying to encourage people down that path.
What about the fossil fired electricity industry ?
Allowed to dig up buried solar energy, burn it, using the same air that you and I breathe at no cost. Discharge plumes of pollutants off their property, while evaporation millions of gallons of water that could be used for drinking/agriculture.
To be allowed to do this, they are effectively being subsidised, and once again, by everyone else.
So are you advocating that these fossil operations be shut down? This will end the "subsidies" that you mention.
Is it best that we ignore the most efficient and cheap source of energy that we have available to us? Why don't we just end them tomorrow. Would that not motivate alternatives?
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Sounds like a bunch of subsidies (tax dollars taken from someone else) make it possible. Imagine if EVERYONE took advantage of this at one time. You would run out of other people's money.
You are largely correct, and the reason for the subsidies is that they are trying to encourage people down that path.
What about the fossil fired electricity industry ?
Allowed to dig up buried solar energy, burn it, using the same air that you and I breathe at no cost. Discharge plumes of pollutants off their property, while evaporation millions of gallons of water that could be used for drinking/agriculture.
To be allowed to do this, they are effectively being subsidised, and once again, by everyone else.
So are you advocating that these fossil operations be shut down? This will end the "subsidies" that you mention.
Is it best that we ignore the most efficient and cheap source of energy that we have available to us? Why don't we just end them tomorrow. Would that not motivate alternatives?
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
The 3rd Rule of Acquisition:
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
It will never be truly cheaper than NOW. Once you have to do something, the cost goes way up.
That's worked out real good with ethanol....
I really tend to agree with you, but ethanol is filled with sweat and toil millionaires that needed help. They got it ..and now ...
You also assume that just because it was used as an alternative fuel source, that this was its intended effect. It internalized billions of $$$ in secondary inflation effects.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wait until demand growth, and attrition of aging fossil plant requires the building of new fossil plants, fuel supply facilities, ash disposal facilities, and see how the NIMBYs get steam rollerred.
It's a necessity then, as opposed to a nicety now.
The 3rd Rule of Acquisition:
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
It will never be truly cheaper than NOW. Once you have to do something, the cost goes way up.
That's worked out real good with ethanol....
I really tend to agree with you, but ethanol is filled with sweat and toil millionaires that needed help. They got it ..and now ...
You also assume that just because it was used as an alternative fuel source, that this was its intended effect. It internalized billions of $$$ in secondary inflation effects.
Quote:
I really tend to agree with you, but ethanol is filled with sweat and toil millionaires that needed help. They got it ..and now ...
Can you show me any other "green" industry that is any different? GE seems to need lots of help...and they just happen to make windmills, at a time with gov. pushing "green jobs".
Quote:
You also assume that just because it was used as an alternative fuel source, that this was its intended effect. It internalized billions of $$$ in secondary inflation effects.
It went through as a subsidy to a small group and wound up costing the world higher food prices, and actually increasing carbon emissions. Results such as these are typical of government cost control programs.
I see no reason not to expect the same with the coming "most favored" contractors picked by government via it's "green jobs" programs.
I really tend to agree with you, but ethanol is filled with sweat and toil millionaires that needed help. They got it ..and now ...
Can you show me any other "green" industry that is any different? GE seems to need lots of help...and they just happen to make windmills, at a time with gov. pushing "green jobs".
Quote:
You also assume that just because it was used as an alternative fuel source, that this was its intended effect. It internalized billions of $$$ in secondary inflation effects.
It went through as a subsidy to a small group and wound up costing the world higher food prices, and actually increasing carbon emissions. Results such as these are typical of government cost control programs.
I see no reason not to expect the same with the coming "most favored" contractors picked by government via it's "green jobs" programs.
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Quote:
Can you show me any other "green" industry that is any different?
..but..but ethanol was filled with sweat and toil millionaires ..isn't that a good thing?
Quote:
GE seems to need lots of help
Like you've asserted XOM needs help?
Can you show me any other "green" industry that is any different?
..but..but ethanol was filled with sweat and toil millionaires ..isn't that a good thing?
Quote:
GE seems to need lots of help
Like you've asserted XOM needs help?
GE does not make windmills. Flour is usually produced in a controlled manner using electrically powered grindstones or steel milling equipment.
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