0w5 motor oil

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The SAE has been considering high-temperature grade ratings of 15, 10, and 5, which would step down in HTHS to 2.3, 2.0, and 1.7, respectively. The KV100 range would remain the same as with the current 20-weight rating. I don't see the logic in auto OEM's spending hundred's of millions's of dollars in redesigning and proving out their engines to live on thinner oils to save less than 1% in fuel. Contacting surfaces on bearings and cams would have to get larger, which would tend to drive up the weight and size of engines. Size tolerances for bearings and journals in order to maintain acceptable clearances for the thinner oils would get tighter, which would drive up the cost of the components. Formulating a 10-weight oil that still has acceptable NOACK properties would probably lead to a more expensive oil.

In the end, I think we would end up with an infinitesimally more efficient engine that would cost as much more to buy as the fuel saved by using 10-weight oil over the life of the car.

Alternatively, I think the future may lie with higher VI, and not lower viscosity ratings. If we stayed with the minimum HTHS of 2.6 for 20-weight oils, and greatly increased the Viscosity Index, the benefit to fuel consumption by having much lower viscosity during warmup would be more than with a 10% decrease in viscosity at stabilized operating temperature.

Consider a garden-variety 0w20 readily available now: Mobil 1 0w20. It has HTHS of 2.6, KV100 of 8.5, and VI of 170. If the VI could be doubled to 340, and the KV100 set at 6.8 cSt, the resulting KV150 would be 3.8 (via Widman), which would yield in the ballpark of an HTHS of 2.6 when converting to dynamic viscosity and allowing for some shear loss. This would yield an oil that performs like a present day 20-weight at high temperature conditions, but the comparative viscosities at low temperatures are very different:

Vis Index -20C 0C 20C 40C
VI 170 1593 339 107 44.8
VI 340 151 66 34 20.3

Here is where big fuel economy gains can be made by using oil that is 1/2 to 1/10 the viscosity of existing oils at typical startup temperatures. And there would not be any need to completely redesign engines to maybe eke out a 0.5% improvement in fuel economy.
 
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Originally Posted By: Klutch9
Originally Posted By: LckydevL

Pardon my ignorance, but when the term "useful for engines designed for them" is used.

Does that mean engines with tighter metal to metal tolerances?



Correct. It also means that the engine(s) have an oil pump capable of producing sufficient oil pressure with an oil than thin. And a few other things, I'm sure.


Modern manufacturing processes can produce tighter bearing tolerance, but overall, the typical bearing clearances haven't changed much in 60+/- years.
 
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: Brons2
More thickness beyond that will not do anything other than create more heat.
What is the physics of this, please?


More energy to pump, more drag as it is forced through smaller spaces. Kinetic energy basically. Creates heat.

You'll see this if you install a real oil temperature gauge, a thicker oil runs hotter for the same given engine operating parameters.
 
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
A_Harman has it!


Theory is easily tested by running a batch of Toyota 0w20, maybe I should try it.
 
No a VI of 340 is not possible but A_H is right, a VI as high as possible is key and has always been the "holy grail" in automotive lubrication. That's the whole reason behind the trend to the 0W-20 grade by the Japanese OEM's principly lead by Toyota and Honda. It has nothing to no with pumping at -40 degrees but rather with their 200+ VIs.

Nippon Oil's premium in house brand Sustina have released their new 0W-20 with a 229 VI and they claim a 2% fuel economy advantage to the high VI alone. Check out their video and fast forward about a third of the way through where they have a nice demonstration of the advantages of a high VI:

http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php

The advantage of a 0W-5 with a HTHSV of 1.7cP and a 200+ VI is virtually no excessive oil drag on start-up at room temperature.
And you don't have to redesign an engine to use it.
The key is controling maximum oil temp's. If you can keep max' oil temp's to 80-85C most engines today would have no problem maintaining a long engine life under such conditions.
 
Originally Posted By: hardcore302
klotz lube makes a straight 0W. Lucas and others make a 0W-5.

Yes most race oil formulators offer some very light oils for low oil temp' operation. 0W-5 is common as a qualifying oil where oil temp's are kept under 80C.
As a point of interest none of these oils have a high VI.
For example the Toyota 0W-20 with it's 216 VI is likely as light as RL's 0W-5 race oil (VI 134) on start-up at room temperature.
 
I don't get the whole "tighter tolorance" thing. Seems to me most rod bearing clearances are the same in most engines from the 60's up to today. More uniform across each engine I can understand, but .001 to .003 clearance is the same in 1960 as it is in 2012.
 
The tighter tolerance thing comes into play more with thinner oils because the OEM's have to limit the maximum clearance allowable to assure proper oil film thickness. At the same time, they have to keep to the same minimum of about .0008-.0010" that they have always held to. Because their allowable range of clearances would be reduced, the tolerances that the individual parts would have to meet would be less, and the costs would go up. It wouldn't make any difference to suppliers if the OEM's were going to change their bearing clearance range from .002-.004 to .001-.003, because the tolerances would be the same. But if an OEM wanted to reduce their clearance range from .001-.003 to .0010-.0025", the suppliers would raise their prices.

I deal with this almost every day designing valvetrains for engine manufacturers.
 
Originally Posted By: circuitsmith
I wonder if lower cold viscosities are on the way, eg. 00W-20 or 00W-10.

That would be interesting but wouldn't have much relevance since it's how light an oil is at more typical start-up temp's that is the driving force behind the push for the 0W-15, 0W-10 and maybe but unlikely a 0W-5 grade.

It's all about HTHSV and VI. There's no push for lower MRV spec's. The Toyota 0W-20 and Sustina 0W-20's are the lightest oils currently available on start-up down at least to -15C but they don't have the lowest MRV stat's, at least the original Nippon Oil made Toyota 0W-20's MRV of 18,000cP isn't all that low.
 
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: Brons2
More thickness beyond that will not do anything other than create more heat.
What is the physics of this, please?


Simple. More drag and shearing -internal friction.

Also, thinner oils cool the engine better and run cooler oil temp wise.
 
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Yep...take a look at jeggs.com or is it jegs? Lol....they have a couple "Performance" oils.....that are simply 5W and 10W, straight weights....


BUT, you gotta figure, people that track their cars, most of them are running optimum performance engines, likely full-flow filters, and change their oil immediately afterwards....:)
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
How low could a 0-5 wt oil shear down to?.,,


It probably wouldn't shear at all, since an oil that light could certainly be made without any viscosity index improvers at all.
 
I am running Neo 0W-5 in my VW 1.9L TDI right now and at 4K miles nothing is out of the ordinary. Of course, a used oil analysis will be run at the end of this OCI (20-25K).
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The tighter tolerance thing comes into play more with thinner oils because the OEM's have to limit the maximum clearance allowable to assure proper oil film thickness. At the same time, they have to keep to the same minimum of about .0008-.0010" that they have always held to. Because their allowable range of clearances would be reduced, the tolerances that the individual parts would have to meet would be less, and the costs would go up. It wouldn't make any difference to suppliers if the OEM's were going to change their bearing clearance range from .002-.004 to .001-.003, because the tolerances would be the same. But if an OEM wanted to reduce their clearance range from .001-.003 to .0010-.0025", the suppliers would raise their prices.

I deal with this almost every day designing valvetrains for engine manufacturers.


All this sorta makes sense, but would not the oil pumps overcome this? I mean most engines nowadays use the gerotor type pumps and are capable of flow and pressure rates well over the old school "10PSI per 1000RPM". Other than the cost of making a smaller clearanced bearing, still seams to me you could safely run a very thin oil in any engine as long as the pump could handle the flow and pressure ratings needed, no?
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
I am running Neo 0W-5 in my VW 1.9L TDI right now and at 4K miles nothing is out of the ordinary. Of course, a used oil analysis will be run at the end of this OCI (20-25K).

I have noticed that the oil is selling for $18.00/quart.
Do you feel that you are getting value for the money?
Any initial impressions-valve train noise?,lower oil pressure?
Do you actually plan on doing a 25k OCI? Keep us posted.Are there any Canadian distributors for NEO products?
 
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