'06 Honda Ridgeline, 6500 miles Havol 5w20/LC20

[martyi]

12500 total miles on truck which was purchased new in May '05. First oil change in Jan. '06 when OLM showed 15% oil life expectancy on the factory fill. Changed with Havoline dino 5w20. Last week the OLM again showed 15% so I changed again with Havoline 5w20. The sample shown is nine months and 6500 miles old and is what replace the factory fill in January. It seems my OLM shows I should change oil about every 6000-7000 miles.

I use Filtech oil filters; LC20 at the rate of 1oz per qt. at oil change and 1oz per 1000 miles thereafter (started when truck had 3000 miles on it); also use FP60 since new at the rate of 1oz per 5 gals of gas (almost always Chevron 87oct). I have never missed a dose of either LC or FP.

Although I think I know what the elements mean, I would like the folks here to tell me if the OLM is telling me the truth or if I need to disregard it and change earlier or later by time and/or mileage. Thanks in advance for any comments you may have about this report (from Blackstone).

Alum 5
Chrom 1
Irn 19
Copp 13
Led 0
Tin 0
Moly 322
Nick 0
Mang 13
Slvr 0
Ti 0
Pot 0
Bor 12
Sil 18
Sodi 2
Cal 1481
Mag 22
Phos 594
Zinc 698
Bari 0
TBN 1.2

Tested Values: Sus. viscosity 51.8
Flash Point 370
Fuel % Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insoluables 0.3

 

[The Critic]

Considering that it's only the second oil fill this engine has ever seen, it's pretty good.

The fuel dilution is from the short trips you constantly make.

I'd continue what you're doing.

 

[Pablo]

TBN fairly severely depleted. Fe seems a tad high but the engine is still breaking in. 7.8 cSt seems a bit low but 5W-20 can go 5.6-9.3 - what does Havoline start at?

Why are you using LC in your oil?

 

[The Critic]

My recollection is that martyi's driving consists primarily of trips < 5 miles in length. For that matter, the TBN is pretty good.

Many 5w-20 oils go below 7.5cst at the end of the test.

2.0-2.5 ppm/1000 miles Fe is not uncommon for these Honda V6 engines with up to 30k miles on them.

 

[martyi]

Quote:

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TBN fairly severely depleted. Fe seems a tad high but the engine is still breaking in. 7.8 cSt seems a bit low but 5W-20 can go 5.6-9.3 - what does Havoline start at?

Why are you using LC in your oil?

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I'm not sure Pablo. When I got the truck I came here to learn about oil, filters, additives, etc. to try to keep the thing in good shape. I remember back then reading all this stuff about LC and FP and how everyone was calling these products the best things for your vehicle since sliced bread. They are time tested as well and Terry Dyson (who I think knows his stuff) says they are pretty good too. Frankly, I never heard of them until I started reading here and just thought I would try them.

I understand the LC 20 prolongs the life of the oil a bit which, if you go by the OLM, gives you a little leeway, especially if the OLM goes beyond 5000 miles when most dinos are feeling their age. I think LC even claims you can go 10000 miles between OCIs using LC 20 (at least I recall reading that somewhere); however, as you pointed out, the TBN shows the oil is about shot at 6500 miles. Does the LC do any good for me? Not sure but another UOA might shed some light on it.

 

[martyi]

Quote:

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My recollection is that martyi's driving consists primarily of trips < 5 miles in length. For that matter, the TBN is pretty good.

Many 5w-20 oils go below 7.5cst at the end of the test.

2.0-2.5 ppm/1000 miles Fe is not uncommon for these Honda V6 engines with up to 30k miles on them.

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Yes, you have a good memory. However, I don't do those short trips as often as I use to and I make sure to get about a trip a week to "town", which is forty miles away.

BTW, what does Fe and cst mean?

 

[JohnBrowning]

That TBN is way to low for me. I would change the oil maybe 1000 miles sooner or maybe when it says 25% oil life left. In the long term letting the TBN get this low could cause accelerated wear by corrision. Takeing into account the lack of oil changes on this vechile and the low milage I would say that the number look ok otherwise. I would like to see the silicone and iron trnd down some more over time.I would also like to see the cromium come down to zero but most of that is probably from breakin.

 

[Pablo]

Relative to all other 3.5V6 Honda engines - I see nothing greatly improved by the LC. I tried to find the viscosity (in cSt - centistokes, a common measure of oil viscosity) of Havoline on their site - couldn't.

I agree that the Fe (iron) is not real high and it should come down in the next change or two. Don't get me wrong, your engine looks great. I just think Havoline alone is a pretty darn good oil and doesn't need additives. Next time use it straight.

My wife has very similar driving habits - our OLM on the Ody went off at 6900 miles. (Now approaching 11K) But regardless of what the critic says a TBN of 1.2 is pretty darn low - but your insolubles are low (that's a good thing).

 

[martyi]

I just came from the Ridgeline forum where someone posted their Blackstone report. That truck is somewhat close to mine in total miles and oci in that the miles on the sample oil is 7059 and the total miles on the vehicle is 13519 (that is pretty close to the 6500 miles on my oil sample and 12500 total miles on the truck). The climate we drive in is about the same to - he in Florida, me in Texas. This report is with PP 5w30 and it would be interesting to hear your views as you compare this synthetic oil analysis with my dino analysis.

Al 4
Chr 1
Iron 11
Cop 48
Led 1
Tin 0
Moly 80
Nick 0
Man 1
Sil 0
Titaniu 0
Pot 2
Bor 9
Silic 21
Sodi 2
Cal 2245
Mag 11
Phos 616
Zinc 712
Bari 0

TBN Not shown

Sus Viscosity 59.6
Flashpoint 360
Fuel 0.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insoluables 0.4


So, how do all think this PP synthetic report compares to my Havoline dino?

 

[The Critic]

I just noticed something. The copper for your truck is 13? That's suspiciously low. Usually it stays around 30 ppm for the first 30k miles or so.

 

[martyi]

Quote:

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I just noticed something. The copper for your truck is 13? That's suspiciously low. Usually it stays around 30 ppm for the first 30k miles or so.

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I noticed that too, especially as I was comparing my report with the PP report I just posted. Copper is from wear-in at brass/bronze parts. That being the case, my only guess is that the high doseage of moly that comes with the factory fill (either from a special oil they use or the factory assembly lubes that blend with the oil) is what protects these parts during the break-in period. Honda has been saying for some time now to keep the factory fill in the motor for the full duration of the OCI and not change it out early. Maybe there is something to this afterall because these wear indicators are showing nothing in the oil, at least not in my oil. The difference I see between the Havoline I use and the PP used in the second report is that the Havoline has a whole bunch more moly (322 for my Havoline and 80 parts for the PP). Maybe what folks have been saying about Havoline and its moly is starting to make sense.

 

[The Critic]

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I just noticed something. The copper for your truck is 13? That's suspiciously low. Usually it stays around 30 ppm for the first 30k miles or so.

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I noticed that too, especially as I was comparing my report with the PP report I just posted. Copper is from wear-in at brass/bronze parts. That being the case, my only guess is that the high doseage of moly that comes with the factory fill (either from a special oil they use or the factory assembly lubes that blend with the oil) is what protects these parts during the break-in period. Honda has been saying for some time now to keep the factory fill in the motor for the full duration of the OCI and not change it out early. Maybe there is something to this afterall because these wear indicators are showing nothing in the oil, at least not in my oil. The difference I see between the Havoline I use and the PP used in the second report is that the Havoline has a whole bunch more moly (322 for my Havoline and 80 parts for the PP). Maybe what folks have been saying about Havoline and its moly is starting to make sense.

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Or not. I smell lab error.

If you search this forum, I do not recall a single Honda V6 engine showing Copper readings of < 20 ppm with less than 30k miles.

 

[427Z06]

Maybe the Cu number got transposed somehow and it's actually 31.

As far as the TBN, IIRC, I think Terry once said something to the effect that if the oil starts with a low TBN, a lower TBN value in the UOA isn't as much of a comcern.

 

[martyi]

Quote:

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Maybe the Cu number got transposed somehow and it's actually 31.

As far as the TBN, IIRC, I think Terry once said something to the effect that if the oil starts with a low TBN, a lower TBN value in the UOA isn't as much of a comcern.

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I emailed Blackstone my concern that perhaps the wear-in for the copper number was a bit low and they said they would do a spectral exam (whatever that is) of the oil today and let me know. Pretty cool service!

 

[427Z06]

Looking at some of the other longer Havoline runs, your TBN looks about right. As long as it doesn't go below 1.0 (Blackstone's Method), your OK, it just wouldn't have any reserve left. I bet it improves as your engine is more broken in.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I don't think the oil and additive combo is doing bad at all with your current routine. This is only the second crankcase full of oil ever ran in this engine. I would repeat the same treatment. You may expiriment with increasing the LC by 25-50%(if you dare but iron is going to drop anyway). You can expect iron wear to continue down and if copper is correct that would indicate something is being done right(if it is not an error).
Don't change a thing and watch the wear metals continue to drop.

TBN is still good by Blackstone methods and your engine is well protected.

 

[martyi]

I just received the spectral analysis and the copper turned out at 12 ppm so that verifies there was no error by Blackstone the first time around. They could not explain why the copper was so low. I guess it is just a slow motor to break-in. The PP analysis of the truck with almost the same miles as mine showed 48 ppm. Could it be the moly in Havoline?

 

[Pablo]

Probably the LC and Mo keeping it down OR just you didn't have as much assembly grease to start with (Cu antiseize)

. I would just observe and enjoy!

 

[427Z06]

Quote:

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...OR just you didn't have as much assembly grease to start with (Cu antiseize).

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Copper in assembly lube? Never heard that one before. Cu is usually used in high temp (600°C+) anti-seize compound to prevent galling, corrosion and seizure of things such as exhaust flange studs.

But I agree, martyi should enjoy the bliss that comes with a great UOA.

 

[Pablo]

Well it's a thought. Where is this Cu coming from? There is no oil cooler - it could be bearings - but ya think that much? I'll bet some anti-seize is used....well maybe I'd bet .05$