MMO Piston soak Prius

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To truly dissolve carbon requires a very strong chemical solution, conventional spray cleaners (like carb clean) will not do it. Consider what it takes to clean an old oven! It takes something akin to pain stripper!

MMO and BG products are truly insufficient for hard carbon, regardless of what the u tube videos say.

Short of mechanical removal, What works is liquid paint stripper (like aircraft paint stripper) or similar products that contain Methylene Chloride. Examples include a pail of Berryman's CHEM-DIP carburetor cleaner (the kind where you submerge the carb overnight) and liquid paint gun cleaner (the kind where you submerge the paint gun overnight) . Note the pattern here, and all of the chemicals will immediately burn your skin.

You can, if you are very careful, use thin versions of these chemicals in a functional engine. Piston at BDC, oil drain plug removed, add just enough to cover the piston, monitor as it drains through, add more as necessary. Do this for a full day. Remove any excess, flush the oil pan with Kerosene and perform multiple oil changes afterwards. Even then, there is no guarantee that the chemical won't cause other issues. It will dissolve carbon on the piston ring lands and crown without damaging metal. There is high risk of damage to the head gasket. So make sure not to get it anywhere near the gasket.

It is a good idea to keep the quantity used to a minimum by ensuring the piston is level and add just enough to get to the rings. The thin stuff will flow through. The thick stuff will not. Takes 12-24 hours to work, and must remain wet with fresh solvent.

At this point, you may not have much to lose. The engine will not fix itself and more viscous oil is just a crutch. I'd guess you either have a broken ring, or a carboned up and stuck ring (more likely)
 
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Originally Posted By: Cujet
To truly dissolve carbon requires a very strong chemical solution, conventional spray cleaners (like carb clean) will not do it.


Depends. In an operating engine, water becomes a "very strong chemical solution", forming free radicals that react with hot carbon to give carbon monoxide and hydrogen.

C +H20 -> CO + H2

Originally Posted By: Cujet


Consider what it takes to clean an old oven! It takes something akin to pain stripper!



Water is probably cheaper than a pain stripper too. Got no experience of that SM stuff but I'd imagine it's quite pricy.

Brake fluid strips paint. It's also quite a good carb cleaner. I've never tried it as a piston soak but I'd think it might be quite effective, though it might not be good to leave it in your oil for very long.
 
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I've never seen a situation where water was able to unstick piston rings in an operating engine. Remember that stuck piston rings have coked oil (very hard and impenetrable carbon/varnish) on them, not just combustion deposits.

Also, when enough water is used to start to break up cylinder head carbon, it absolutely ends up in the oil in very large quantities, and turns the oil milky.

I've experimented with water injection for years, being a turbocharged engine guy, who is always in search of more power and lower detonation. Water injection does not result in particularly good results with hard carbon or varnish removal, or for that matter carbon prevention. AND, absolutely does not prevent piston ring coking (varnish) when dino oils are used.

Toyota nation won't hotlink pics, but I found a Porsche piston with stuck rings. A high quality synthetic oil would have prevented this.

EDIT: But I bet that Porsche had a lifetime of good UOA results and indicated minimal engine wear....right up until it lost compression.

CIMG02881299057594.jpg
 
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Originally Posted By: Cujet

Also, when enough water is used to start to break up cylinder head carbon, it absolutely ends up in the oil in very large quantities, and turns the oil milky.



I suspect this "enough water" thing is a misunderstanding, though I can't prove it. There was a video posted recently where this happened.

FAR too much water.

For the chemistry to work you don't particularly want or need liquid water at all, since steam is the active ingredient.

For most of the other benefits of water injection (anti-knock and charge cooling, perhaps "steam engine effect) you want a very finely divided spray of liquid water, and you dont want steam in the charge since it would displace air and cut your performance, but that isn't an issue if you only want a de-coke.
 
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Shows dissolving carbon on valves by soaking... 5:26 results



I wonder if that berrymans is similar somehow, or a weaker version of, their CHEM-DIP carb cleaner. (a very effective caustic product) The guys gloves immediately reacted, which is common for powerful products.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Shows dissolving carbon on valves by soaking... 5:26 results



I wonder if that berrymans is similar somehow, or a weaker version of, their CHEM-DIP carb cleaner. (a very effective caustic product) The guys gloves immediately reacted, which is common for powerful products.


You wouldn't want to use carb cleaner for any amount of time on aluminum like pistons because it will damage them. My dad had some turkey at his shop that decided to soak the pistons in this over night and the pistons badly oxidized and it looked like they shrunk in size. (I didn't personally see this but my dad tells me the story)
 
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Shows dissolving carbon on valves by soaking... 5:26 results



I wonder if that berrymans is similar somehow, or a weaker version of, their CHEM-DIP carb cleaner. (a very effective caustic product) The guys gloves immediately reacted, which is common for powerful products.


You wouldn't want to use carb cleaner for any amount of time on aluminum like pistons because it will damage them. My dad had some turkey at his shop that decided to soak the pistons in this over night and the pistons badly oxidized and it looked like they shrunk in size. (I didn't personally see this but my dad tells me the story)


This may have been true years ago, but any of the carb dip products I have seen in recent years are reformulated to be aluminum safe. Most carbs are made out of aluminum or zinc.
 
Have you tried implementing the good ol' Italian Tune up into the mix to see if WOT and redline cylinder pressures can help burn off and clean up that cylinder?

Weird why only one is causing the issue. Definitely premature failure in #3.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
... see if WOT and redline cylinder pressures can help burn off and clean up that cylinder? ...
Max BMEP is at 4000 RPM, not at "redline."
I don't see how that's going to de-coke the oil ring.
 
The can of BG109 came in the mail yesterday. I'll try and get to the oil change this weekend if time allows. I'm really hoping this helps at the very least!
 
Originally Posted By: StevieC


You wouldn't want to use carb cleaner for any amount of time on aluminum like pistons because it will damage them. My dad had some turkey at his shop that decided to soak the pistons in this over night and the pistons badly oxidized and it looked like they shrunk in size. (I didn't personally see this but my dad tells me the story)

Methylene chloride was once used in carb cleaners as well as old-school Chem-Dip. Chem-Dip also had cresols and sodium bichromate. MeCl will attack aluminum but not by itself, rather via breakdown products upon exposure to air.

https://communities.acs.org/thread/9302
 
I'm shocked Chem-tool didn't work better seeing it's a "hotter" cleaner with stronger solvents. The stuff is almost like lacquer thinner. Seafoam is more or less a mix of mineral oil, stoddard solvent, isopropyl alcohol and Butyl Cellosolve.
 
I had some success freeing up the oil rings in my Saturn.
I did a 24 hour soak with Chemtool and another 24 hours with MMO.

Oil consumption dropped by about half.
 
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