Adios Altima CVT!
- Thread starter dkryan
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French engineering at its finest and a shame for you.
Have the reflash done and see what happens.
It may be that the tranny has many miles left in it.
If the worst happens, how much would a rebuilt aftermarket CVT cost?
It may be that there are better remans available than the Nissan original and it's likely that even eating the cost of a replacement would be less costly than taking the depreciation hit on your Altima.
Also, if the CVT really is in death mode, the value of the car will be commensurate with that so pretty low.
It would be galling to have taken good care of a car only to have serious design related mechanical problems surface after only a few years and miles.
Have the reflash done and see what happens.
It may be that the tranny has many miles left in it.
If the worst happens, how much would a rebuilt aftermarket CVT cost?
It may be that there are better remans available than the Nissan original and it's likely that even eating the cost of a replacement would be less costly than taking the depreciation hit on your Altima.
Also, if the CVT really is in death mode, the value of the car will be commensurate with that so pretty low.
It would be galling to have taken good care of a car only to have serious design related mechanical problems surface after only a few years and miles.
make sure you take it in now, and have the warranty history updated with customer complaints. that way if it fails outside of warranty you still have some recourse.
Originally Posted By: Superflan
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
The newer units are emulating gears.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Thanks manufacturers.
Thanks marketing vs customers. Many drivers where complaining of continuous slipping and bringing back their car saying something's wrong. There comes the 6/7/8 soeed emulated cvts.
ford did something similar with the CVT's in the FiveHundred/Montego/Freestyle. they put in a torque converter. it didn't fully emulate the feel of gears, but there was a noticeable sensation.
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
The newer units are emulating gears.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Thanks manufacturers.
Thanks marketing vs customers. Many drivers where complaining of continuous slipping and bringing back their car saying something's wrong. There comes the 6/7/8 soeed emulated cvts.
ford did something similar with the CVT's in the FiveHundred/Montego/Freestyle. they put in a torque converter. it didn't fully emulate the feel of gears, but there was a noticeable sensation.
Nick1994
$100 site donor 2024
I'd never own a Nissan for that very reason. I didn't even search for them when I was looking for a newer car.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
French engineering at its finest and a shame for you.
Have the reflash done and see what happens.
It may be that the tranny has many miles left in it.
If the worst happens, how much would a rebuilt aftermarket CVT cost?
It may be that there are better remans available than the Nissan original and it's likely that even eating the cost of a replacement would be less costly than taking the depreciation hit on your Altima.
Also, if the CVT really is in death mode, the value of the car will be commensurate with that so pretty low.
It would be galling to have taken good care of a car only to have serious design related mechanical problems surface after only a few years and miles.
All good points, as usual, and it's certainly something I have been mulling over.
I have a Masonic Brother who manages a tranny shop in Montgomery. He has dealt with Nissan CVTs out of warranty. As in only 60k or slightly more miles on them. Nissan fought the owner's tooth and nail when the trannies went belly-up.
The owners (Rogue and an Altima) gave up and brought the cars to him.
They do not rebuild Nissan CVTs. He had new CVTs shipped in from Tennessee. The bill to the owners?
$7,319. Each. I almost fell over.
Of that total, only $1,100 or so was labor charges.
I will have it flashed and document thoroughly.
If it ultimately needs a new CVT, It will be on them and it will have to include a 60k mile warranty.
French engineering at its finest and a shame for you.
Have the reflash done and see what happens.
It may be that the tranny has many miles left in it.
If the worst happens, how much would a rebuilt aftermarket CVT cost?
It may be that there are better remans available than the Nissan original and it's likely that even eating the cost of a replacement would be less costly than taking the depreciation hit on your Altima.
Also, if the CVT really is in death mode, the value of the car will be commensurate with that so pretty low.
It would be galling to have taken good care of a car only to have serious design related mechanical problems surface after only a few years and miles.
All good points, as usual, and it's certainly something I have been mulling over.
I have a Masonic Brother who manages a tranny shop in Montgomery. He has dealt with Nissan CVTs out of warranty. As in only 60k or slightly more miles on them. Nissan fought the owner's tooth and nail when the trannies went belly-up.
The owners (Rogue and an Altima) gave up and brought the cars to him.
They do not rebuild Nissan CVTs. He had new CVTs shipped in from Tennessee. The bill to the owners?
$7,319. Each. I almost fell over.
Of that total, only $1,100 or so was labor charges.
I will have it flashed and document thoroughly.
If it ultimately needs a new CVT, It will be on them and it will have to include a 60k mile warranty.
The Accord Hybrid isn't a real cvt. It drives through the electric motor, which is the transmission, and I suppose, technically continuously variable. Above 47 mph, assuming a light load, the gasoline engine is directly coupled, by clutch, to the drivetrain. That is all there is as far as a tranny goes.
I have owned mine nearly 3 years. The shift is perceptible, but barely. When you hit the accelerator, gas engine, and main battery drive the electric motor. Lots of get up and go, accompanied by a lot more noise.
I have owned mine nearly 3 years. The shift is perceptible, but barely. When you hit the accelerator, gas engine, and main battery drive the electric motor. Lots of get up and go, accompanied by a lot more noise.
Originally Posted By: jennings
The Accord Hybrid isn't a real cvt. It drives through the electric motor, which is the transmission, and I suppose, technically continuously variable. Above 47 mph, assuming a light load, the gasoline engine is directly coupled, by clutch, to the drivetrain. That is all there is as far as a tranny goes.
I have owned mine nearly 3 years. The shift is perceptible, but barely. When you hit the accelerator, gas engine, and main battery drive the electric motor. Lots of get up and go, accompanied by a lot more noise.
Is that good or bad?
In other words, would you buy it again?
The Accord Hybrid isn't a real cvt. It drives through the electric motor, which is the transmission, and I suppose, technically continuously variable. Above 47 mph, assuming a light load, the gasoline engine is directly coupled, by clutch, to the drivetrain. That is all there is as far as a tranny goes.
I have owned mine nearly 3 years. The shift is perceptible, but barely. When you hit the accelerator, gas engine, and main battery drive the electric motor. Lots of get up and go, accompanied by a lot more noise.
Is that good or bad?
In other words, would you buy it again?
Nissan is a fun vehicle to drive, period and their ATs can take any abuse and are generally very reliable.
Now on the overall reliablity scale Nissan is very bad and the hard part is they don't even want to acknowledge it.
Autos are getting quite expensive and having them for atleast 10 yrs offsets the depreciation and maintainence costs.
Now on the overall reliablity scale Nissan is very bad and the hard part is they don't even want to acknowledge it.
Autos are getting quite expensive and having them for atleast 10 yrs offsets the depreciation and maintainence costs.
$6K+ just for the assembly?
Ouch!
On paper, a CVT should be a much less complicated piece than a conventional automatic.
I'm guessing that they must be cheaper to make than bunch of speed automatic gearboxes, or we wouldn't otherwise see CVTs so widely adopted in less costly cars.
There appear to be reman Nissan CVTs available although at what cost and with what durability I have no idea. One reman builder states that its trannies are remanned using OEM Nissan parts and will perform as well as the original, which doesn't inspire much confidence.
CVTs aren't exactly new tech either. DAF offered a CVT production road nearly sixty years ago.
Nissan wasn't exactly new to CVTs at the time your Altima was built either.
I wonder what breaks or wears out in these Nissan trannies at such an early stage?
Ouch!
On paper, a CVT should be a much less complicated piece than a conventional automatic.
I'm guessing that they must be cheaper to make than bunch of speed automatic gearboxes, or we wouldn't otherwise see CVTs so widely adopted in less costly cars.
There appear to be reman Nissan CVTs available although at what cost and with what durability I have no idea. One reman builder states that its trannies are remanned using OEM Nissan parts and will perform as well as the original, which doesn't inspire much confidence.
CVTs aren't exactly new tech either. DAF offered a CVT production road nearly sixty years ago.
Nissan wasn't exactly new to CVTs at the time your Altima was built either.
I wonder what breaks or wears out in these Nissan trannies at such an early stage?
There will always be some bad apples. Nissan sells over 300,000 Altimas a year. All with CVT's. Over a million Nissan CVT vehicles a year sold just in the US. The percentage of problems vs what's out there isn't high. Hopefully the reflash takes care of it. My moms 07 Altima has been flawless. 141k, and climbing.
Let the dealer do the re-flash and have them document the downshift issue.
If it still acts up after the re-flash see if you can get it replaced.
With a new cvt and the corrected software I doubt you will have any further issues.
Knock on wood, my wife has almost 75k on the CVT in her 11 Quest and it is still working like new.
I bought it with 47k and did 2 drain and fills on the CVT right after we got it.
If it still acts up after the re-flash see if you can get it replaced.
With a new cvt and the corrected software I doubt you will have any further issues.
Knock on wood, my wife has almost 75k on the CVT in her 11 Quest and it is still working like new.
I bought it with 47k and did 2 drain and fills on the CVT right after we got it.
YES, keep us informed on your progress and best of luck!
I too have an Altima 2.5 SV(2015) and love it especially the CVT. It's not as an engaging car to drive as my '04 Altima 2.5 but, good just the same.
The MPG is very good and I actually like the way the CVT behaves. I enjoy the lack of shifting and the smooth/quiet ride. I guess that if I wanted a Camry, I would have purchased a Camry but, I found the Altima more comfortable, quiet, better MPG and better acquisition price($7000 off sticker) which more than makes up for the Altima's lower resale value.
I do hope for good reliability with this one(the '04 was good over the 11 yrs) and Nissan's have been as reliable for me(for ME) as any of my Honda's & Toyota's that I've owned for the same period of time.
I too have an Altima 2.5 SV(2015) and love it especially the CVT. It's not as an engaging car to drive as my '04 Altima 2.5 but, good just the same.
The MPG is very good and I actually like the way the CVT behaves. I enjoy the lack of shifting and the smooth/quiet ride. I guess that if I wanted a Camry, I would have purchased a Camry but, I found the Altima more comfortable, quiet, better MPG and better acquisition price($7000 off sticker) which more than makes up for the Altima's lower resale value.
I do hope for good reliability with this one(the '04 was good over the 11 yrs) and Nissan's have been as reliable for me(for ME) as any of my Honda's & Toyota's that I've owned for the same period of time.
Originally Posted By: dkryan
.. I had hoped my usual focus on maintenance, including changing the CVT fluid every 35k miles, would negate any problems.
But, clearly, fluid changes cannot overcome bad hardware engineering.
I can relate. I lost a well maintained 03 2.5L Altima to the stellar French engineered exhaust precats destroying the engine. I too followed all the Nissan recommended maintenance and recalls, all for naught. My experience was documented in this thread. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2139188&page=all
I wish you much luck and success with the ecm reflash. That said, 'ime' with Nissan and the 2.5L Altima, a Nissan ecm reflash is one Nissan's favorite ineffective fixes. Perhaps in your case though, you will be more fortunate.
On thing you note going for you I didn't, repairs will be under warranty.
.. I had hoped my usual focus on maintenance, including changing the CVT fluid every 35k miles, would negate any problems.
But, clearly, fluid changes cannot overcome bad hardware engineering.
I can relate. I lost a well maintained 03 2.5L Altima to the stellar French engineered exhaust precats destroying the engine. I too followed all the Nissan recommended maintenance and recalls, all for naught. My experience was documented in this thread. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2139188&page=all
I wish you much luck and success with the ecm reflash. That said, 'ime' with Nissan and the 2.5L Altima, a Nissan ecm reflash is one Nissan's favorite ineffective fixes. Perhaps in your case though, you will be more fortunate.
On thing you note going for you I didn't, repairs will be under warranty.
Most new cars have a "plethora of issues" Ive owned over 70 new cars.
I don't hear a death nell for your CVT if the reflsh takes care of belt pully hydraulic issues.
Much ado about nothing. I have the older unit in my rogues and I haven't broken it -Ive broken everything else that was "SUPPOSED" to be solid due to my aggressive driving.
Honda accord or civic don't have an upper and lower wishbone suspension anymore. The only nice thing about them. Honda auto trans are notoriously fragile.
The grass is not greener on the other side. Altima is the best driving popular midsizer by far. Our Gvt. Contractor parking lot (high level engineers) is 90 % Nissan with excellent luck. Don't ask about the VW drivers. Or the Hyundai drivers.
I don't hear a death nell for your CVT if the reflsh takes care of belt pully hydraulic issues.
Much ado about nothing. I have the older unit in my rogues and I haven't broken it -Ive broken everything else that was "SUPPOSED" to be solid due to my aggressive driving.
Honda accord or civic don't have an upper and lower wishbone suspension anymore. The only nice thing about them. Honda auto trans are notoriously fragile.
The grass is not greener on the other side. Altima is the best driving popular midsizer by far. Our Gvt. Contractor parking lot (high level engineers) is 90 % Nissan with excellent luck. Don't ask about the VW drivers. Or the Hyundai drivers.
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My experience with my 2013 Altima 3.5S was lackluster. I encountered the violent transmission shudder at 22k miles. Called dealer and they said that it was normal. It, without exaggeration, felt like I ran over several rows of parking barriers at 65mph. And I was at a steady, low-throttle cruise. It was a violent crashing throughout the entire vehicle and scared me. I honestly thought I hit some large road debris, like a bunch of 4x4's on the road. Yet it was clear, new pavement on 528 (near Orlando).
Nissan changed a few things with the JATCO-sourced X-Tronic CVT, which debuted in the 2013 Altima. They transitioned from the older (and thicker) NS-2 CVT fluid to the fully synthetic (but vast;y thinner) NS-3 CVT fluid; it makes a 0w-20 oil feel like 20w-50 in comparison. They then cut the overall fluid capacity of the transmission by almost 50% (from 12-13+ quarts down to 8-point-something quarts). They have a warming/cooling circuit that diverts hot coolant from the engine to the transmission case to warm the fluid faster than otherwise. It also ostensibly "cools" the transmission fluid, but I'm not sure how well that would work when the engine runs at 190 F or higher and the transmission is much happier at 150-170 F. But, hey, it could work and I'm not an engineer.
My vehicle went in to have the CVT and engine "re flashed" at the dealer and it fixed nothing. I then did a series of drain and refills myself (I was NOT going to pay $320 per drain and refill at the dealer) of the CVT fluid. Two with Valvoline full synthetic CVT fluid (NS-3 compliant), and two more with Amsoil CVT fluid (also NS-3 compliant).
The first D&R exposed a milky, dark-green fluid with a pronounced burnt smell and an alarming amount of black, ferrous particles in the fluid. It was easy to see in the drain pain as black goop and it was attracted to my neo magnet I have in the shop. This was done at 22k miles, mind you. And the vehicle had seen virtually exclusively highway driving from 13k to that point (we bought it used).
I measured the exact amount that came out and refilled with the exact same amount. There is NO DIPSTICK (Thanks Nissan!), so measuring is critical.
The next D&R was conducted 500 miles later and still had a lot of black "goop", much of which was ferrous. The fluid was still milky and dark, but didn't smell quite as burnt (still in awful condition for less than 23k miles). Shifting steadily improved after each of these D&Rs. I did the second D&R after another 500 miles. By "shifting", I mean the smoothness and quickness with which the ratios changed in response to varying rates of acceleration, throttle input, and load.
Next came the Amsoil CVT fluid, which was a huge improvement after each of those two D&Rs.
So, a total of 6 quarts of Valvoline CVT fluid and 6 quarts of Amsoil CVT fluid, in 3 quart increments (exactly 3 quarts came out with the front on ramps).
You may ask why I elected not to use Nissan's OEM NS-3 fluid, and that was because it was over $22/quart at that time and even Amsoil was $12-something per quart. Valvoline was less than $10/quart. And they both worked JUST FINE.
The Amsoil made the transmission especially smooth and quick to respond, with zero torque converter shudder (another issue with the factory fluid).
So, I never regained confidence in the tranny and traded it in at 34k on a 2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R Limited with the 5 speed auto (5EAT). Never going back to a CVT from Nissan as the 5 speed shifts just as smoothly.
There's my $.02. Nissan is seeking fuel economy at the expense of longevity. I cannot even imagine how badly the fluid would have been worn if somebody drove it aggressively for the 60k interval before the FIRST drain and refill. Dear gawd.
As for how the car drove, I loved it. Averaged over 29mpg during my wife's commute and it was a freaking rocket ship. Handled well, rode well, was quiet. Seats were outstanding...but the transmission is flawed, IMHO.
Nissan changed a few things with the JATCO-sourced X-Tronic CVT, which debuted in the 2013 Altima. They transitioned from the older (and thicker) NS-2 CVT fluid to the fully synthetic (but vast;y thinner) NS-3 CVT fluid; it makes a 0w-20 oil feel like 20w-50 in comparison. They then cut the overall fluid capacity of the transmission by almost 50% (from 12-13+ quarts down to 8-point-something quarts). They have a warming/cooling circuit that diverts hot coolant from the engine to the transmission case to warm the fluid faster than otherwise. It also ostensibly "cools" the transmission fluid, but I'm not sure how well that would work when the engine runs at 190 F or higher and the transmission is much happier at 150-170 F. But, hey, it could work and I'm not an engineer.
My vehicle went in to have the CVT and engine "re flashed" at the dealer and it fixed nothing. I then did a series of drain and refills myself (I was NOT going to pay $320 per drain and refill at the dealer) of the CVT fluid. Two with Valvoline full synthetic CVT fluid (NS-3 compliant), and two more with Amsoil CVT fluid (also NS-3 compliant).
The first D&R exposed a milky, dark-green fluid with a pronounced burnt smell and an alarming amount of black, ferrous particles in the fluid. It was easy to see in the drain pain as black goop and it was attracted to my neo magnet I have in the shop. This was done at 22k miles, mind you. And the vehicle had seen virtually exclusively highway driving from 13k to that point (we bought it used).
I measured the exact amount that came out and refilled with the exact same amount. There is NO DIPSTICK (Thanks Nissan!), so measuring is critical.
The next D&R was conducted 500 miles later and still had a lot of black "goop", much of which was ferrous. The fluid was still milky and dark, but didn't smell quite as burnt (still in awful condition for less than 23k miles). Shifting steadily improved after each of these D&Rs. I did the second D&R after another 500 miles. By "shifting", I mean the smoothness and quickness with which the ratios changed in response to varying rates of acceleration, throttle input, and load.
Next came the Amsoil CVT fluid, which was a huge improvement after each of those two D&Rs.
So, a total of 6 quarts of Valvoline CVT fluid and 6 quarts of Amsoil CVT fluid, in 3 quart increments (exactly 3 quarts came out with the front on ramps).
You may ask why I elected not to use Nissan's OEM NS-3 fluid, and that was because it was over $22/quart at that time and even Amsoil was $12-something per quart. Valvoline was less than $10/quart. And they both worked JUST FINE.
The Amsoil made the transmission especially smooth and quick to respond, with zero torque converter shudder (another issue with the factory fluid).
So, I never regained confidence in the tranny and traded it in at 34k on a 2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R Limited with the 5 speed auto (5EAT). Never going back to a CVT from Nissan as the 5 speed shifts just as smoothly.
There's my $.02. Nissan is seeking fuel economy at the expense of longevity. I cannot even imagine how badly the fluid would have been worn if somebody drove it aggressively for the 60k interval before the FIRST drain and refill. Dear gawd.
As for how the car drove, I loved it. Averaged over 29mpg during my wife's commute and it was a freaking rocket ship. Handled well, rode well, was quiet. Seats were outstanding...but the transmission is flawed, IMHO.
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Thanks for posting, Buford.
I initially changed the fluid at 8k miles because not having owned a car with a CVT, I was unsure of how much wear would occur during the first 10k.
I changed it again 30k miles later. I used NS-3 both times. I was getting about four (4) quarts out with each D&R.
The TCM was re-flashed on Monday. I will see how things progress with this ride.
I like the roominess, gas mileage, and Bose audio.
I also like the Subaru Outback. But, with 54k miles on this car, I've eaten a lot of depreciation already. I'll stick with the Altima and keep my fingers crossed.
I initially changed the fluid at 8k miles because not having owned a car with a CVT, I was unsure of how much wear would occur during the first 10k.
I changed it again 30k miles later. I used NS-3 both times. I was getting about four (4) quarts out with each D&R.
The TCM was re-flashed on Monday. I will see how things progress with this ride.
I like the roominess, gas mileage, and Bose audio.
I also like the Subaru Outback. But, with 54k miles on this car, I've eaten a lot of depreciation already. I'll stick with the Altima and keep my fingers crossed.
My experience was the opposite of Bufords. I changed the factory NS2 fluid in our Quest at around 49k and the fluid looked fine.
It was a bit darker than the new fluid but did not look spent.
Will probably go with the Amsoil CVT fluid when I do the next set of drain and fills this summer.
It was a bit darker than the new fluid but did not look spent.
Will probably go with the Amsoil CVT fluid when I do the next set of drain and fills this summer.
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