Mercedes F1 to run thicker oil

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Garak
billt460: I should hope the Petronas people would be able to discern M1 10w-30 when they do a UOA after a race.


Sure they can analyze the difference. I wonder if any of them could tell with the car out on the track? My guess is they wouldn't have a clue.

 

[Garak]

Oh, I wouldn't think so in such a case, either, assuming it didn't grenade the thing.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Oh, I wouldn't think so in such a case, either, assuming it didn't grenade the thing.


Mt point in all of this is risk vs. reward. Looking at Hamilton's blow up, it wasn't. Let's assume he didn't blow up. How much of an "advantage" on track would it have given him, time wise by running thinner oil? To me it seems silly. You're going to risk an engine blow up for a time advantage that is all but impossible to prove. And even if they could somehow prove it, it's all lost with the smallest mistake by the driver in a single corner, or pit crew in a 50+ lap, hour and a half race that comprises 2 or 3 pit stops. These cars break easily enough.

That explosion could very well have cost Hamilton the Championship this year. And all for what? No one really knows. It's all "engineering theory". The way they like to penalize these guys for using parts, you would think it would make more sense to give them the most durable car, that has the best chance of lasting the race. Instead of desperately searching for Nano seconds that may not even exist. At least not enough to be proven with a stopwatch either way.

 

[Garak]

The thing is, we don't know how "thin" they're running, and we do know they can quantify what's going on in lap time, at least within some reasonable error bar; the paper posted by Shannow clearly shows power lost in pumping losses. And look at it this way, it's not like Hulkenberg's Force India Mercedes is running 20w-50 and Lewis Hamilton's Mercedes Mercedes is running 0w-20. In any event, it looks like someone at Mercedes is pushing a little more caution, with Rosberg not having run away with the last race when he clearly could have.

I'm still not convinced that Lewis doesn't share some of the blame for his reliability issues, and that's why I agree with grid penalties for reliability problems. As I mentioned already, it's a lot easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. If Hamilton turns his engine up too high and wins race after race, Mercedes will groan, but the groaning gets rather muted when he brings in 25 points each race. He starts amassing DNFs and grid penalties, the situation starts to change. Beyond that, while these cars are fragile, we're seeing a lot less DNFs than we did in years past.

 

[billt460]

I'd like to see the difference on paper. For example, have Hamilton run several laps with "thinner oil". Then change it to a heavier blend and send him right back out. I just can't see the on track difference possibly being that different, with all other things considered in today's Formula 1 racing. Sometimes these engineers get caught up in a lot of their own thinking. I know in NASCAR on the Super Speedways like Daytona and Talladega, they qualify with a much thinner oil than they race with. But there you are talking about driving around a 2-1/2 mile track for 3 hours, with your foot firmly planted to the floorboards for 500 miles. Not braking for corners, and up and downshifting umpteen times a lap.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: billt460
I'd like to see the difference on paper. For example, have Hamilton run several laps with "thinner oil". Then change it to a heavier blend and send him right back out. I just can't see the on track difference possibly being that different, with all other things considered in today's Formula 1 racing. Sometimes these engineers get caught up in a lot of their own thinking. I know in NASCAR on the Super Speedways like Daytona and Talladega, they qualify with a much thinner oil than they race with. But there you are talking about driving around a 2-1/2 mile track for 3 hours, with your foot firmly planted to the floorboards for 500 miles. Not braking for corners, and up and downshifting umpteen times a lap.

Well, when they can calculate how much time is gained from losing a laps worth of fuel, you can bet that they can measure how many hp is gained or lost with changing the oil specs. The turbo and KERS system may share the same lube as the engine and that may magnify lubrication friction loses? Remember the cars are very light and adding or losing 10hp to 1500lbs isn't insignificant, especially when they can exchange drag for downforce which helps over more of the track.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: billt460
I'd like to see the difference on paper. For example, have Hamilton run several laps with "thinner oil".

Obviously, there are going to be difficulties when introducing the human factor. I'd suspect that Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, and Honda have absolutely no problem measuring power differences in their engines using different lubricants. As already mentioned, the paper calculations can be done, too, but there will be a pile of testing, as well.

Look here. Given the closeness in some of those qualification results, none of the engineers on the team or the petroleum partners or engine suppliers would be worth their salt if they were to ignore any way to get a tiny bit of power here and there.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Given the closeness in some of those qualification results, none of the engineers on the team or the petroleum partners or engine suppliers would be worth their salt if they were to ignore any way to get a tiny bit of power here and there.


I agree. But if they lunch an engine in the process, it's all been a backwards wasted effort. Right now the last thing Hamilton is thinking about is losing pole to Rosberg by .013 of a second for one lap. (And remember, Rosberg supposedly had thicker oil in his engine when that happened). He's thinking of an important win that got away because his engine took a dump.

 

[Garak]

Even in such cases, mistakes can be made. In places like Malaysia and Singapore, they're already pushing the limits of cooling the brakes and the engine, not to mention the driver.

I would gather Petronas would change the oil spec for both Rosberg and Hamilton, to be safe, unless Mercedes and Petronas were both wanting to experiment, but I can't see that, since such stuff can be done on the bench. As I mentioned before, I'm not convinced that Lewis is totally innocent in all this. Or, it could have just been bad luck and the failure wasn't because of a improper viscosity.