Is Our Universe a Fake?

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maybe, or there's a clitch in the Matrix, RUN NEO!
Originally Posted By: Propflux01
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
What I can't figure out is all those different people I see in my dreams that I've never seen before. And why does there always have to be people in our dreams? Why can't we just be chillin' by ourselves somewhere?


They are probably people that you've walked by and didn't notice, but your subconscious remembered them and triggered them in your dreams.
 
Great discussion! I have opinions about it all, but will just say here that it's neat to be part of a forum with such thought-provoking discussion and intelligent members.
 
until our collective conciousness ascends to a higher level, the highest conciousness will withold the purpose of existance..
 
Originally Posted By: benjamming
Originally Posted By: Al
I believe there are infinite "universes" with different properties and "laws" of physics.

So many good books out there:
51Gf5cmUSnL._SX326_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Is a really good one. Krauss is one of the best astrophysicists out there.


What a hack. His attempt at explaining nothing is soooo pathetic.

I would argue with you but you nothing about Quantum Mechanics..where particles appear from nothing and then disappear or in some cases don't. I really feel sorry that people who know so little, dismiss quantum Physics and Cosmology which have proven accurate to the with of a human hair compared to the distance between Cali and New York.

I would encourage everyone to read basic books on QM..there are tons of them.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Computer modeling is neither scientific reality nor proof.

Techinally false. Without computer modeling you would never get a 5 Sigma which is the gold standard of "Proof" for particle discovery. And hardly "unscientific"

Much progress today in any area you want to consider is only possible bc of super computing. All of the "Dirty Work" is done by super computers at CERN. Without them CERN would be as dead as a doornail.
 
My "red flag detector" went off numerous times reading that. I don't agree with the underlying premise, much less any additional ones built on top. IOW, a House of Cards built upon a House of Software.

Further, whomever wrote that article isn't too versed in the Iron Laws either. Just read the quote above. "Supersmart hackers existing somewhere else"? Really? Where? I wonder if he knows the data flight time from New Horizons? Just for a single bit? Obviously not...

The thing about science fiction "sci-fi", is it's just that: Fiction.

Quote:
David Brin, sci-fi writer and space scientist, relates the Chinese parable of an emperor dreaming that he was a butterfly dreaming that he was an emperor. In contemporary versions, Brin said, it may be the year 2050 and people are living in a computer simulation of what life was like in the early 21st century — or it may be billions of years from now, and people are in a simulation of what primitive planets and people were once like.


What was this chinese emperor smoking? Was he seeking enlightenment or drunk on his own ego? Madmen dream as well. Often with disasterous consequences. You don't need to go too far back in history for proof.

"Billions of years from now?" Our own Sun will have gone nova and wiped out the solar system. Though it is a main sequence star, even they have limited lifetimes when talking in "billions of years".

Quote:
Philosopher Nick Bostrom, director of the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University, describes a fake universe as a "richly detailed software simulation of people, including their historical predecessors, by a very technologically advanced civilization." It's like the movie "The Matrix," Bostrom said, except that "instead of having brains in vats that are fed by sensory inputs from a simulator, the brains themselves would also be part of the simulation. It would be one big computer program simulating everything, including human brains down to neurons and synapses."


Obviously to philospher Bostrum, hard science was too hard. Weren't these the same idiots predicting "global freezing" and "mass starvation" 40 years ago? How'd that turn out? Starvation obviously isn't the problem. Obesity is. Just look around!

Quote:
His point is that all cosmic civilizations either disappear (e.g., destroy themselves) before becoming technologically capable, or all decide not to generate whole-world simulations (e.g., decide such creations are not ethical, or get bored with them). The operative word is "all" — because if even one civilization anywhere in the cosmos could generate such simulations, then simulated worlds would multiply rapidly and almost certainly humanity would be in one.


How would he know? What "cosmic civilization(s)" has Bostrum met? What was HE smoking? Dellusions of grandeur or just simply dellusions?

Further, the "operative word isn't "all". It's Bravo Sierra. He's full of it.

Quote:
As technology visionary Ray Kurzweil put it, "maybe our whole universe is a science experiment of some junior high school student in another universe." (Given how things are going, he jokes, she may not get a good grade.)

Kurzweil's worldview is based on the profound implications of what happens over time when computing power grows exponentially. To Kurzweil, a precise simulation is not meaningfully different from real reality. Corroborating the evidence that this universe runs on a computer, he says, is that "physical laws are sets of computational processes" and "information is constantly changing, being manipulated, running on some computational substrate." And that would mean, he concluded, "the universe is a computer." Kurzweil said he considers himself to be a "pattern of information."

"I'm a patternist," he said. "I think patterns, which means that information is the fundamental reality."


Well, their jr. high students must be far smarter than our own as ours have had critical thinking, wood/metal shop, chem. labs and dirt removed from their curriculum by the nanny state and PCP (pc police). "Reality? Can't have any of that here...it's too dangerous. Safety is our upmost priority."

Owl Bore has been hawking the same Bravo Sierra re: "precise simulations" vs. Reality for a few decades now. Guess who won? Mother Nature. She got a good laugh at the hubris of (some) men. The only natural law he's broken and gotten away with is Nature Abhors a Vacuum.

All humans are "pattern(s) of information." Most call them habits. There are good habits and bad habits. We're all organized by them. If quoted correctly, Kurzweil has things backwards. Information isn't the fundamental reality just because he's a patternist and thinks patterns. That's nuts.

Besides, the article is (or was) talking about the Universe. Information isn't the fundamental reality in the Universe. Mass is. Ask Einstein.

"The Difference between Genius and Stupidity is the former has limits." - Sir Albert.

Occasionally I get a dose of such "thinking" when conducting public star parties and asked by an astrologer to show them Mercury. They don't understand that it is difficult to see and never far from the Sun and definitely NOT visible when it's dark. "But the chart says..." When I ask them what chart, they reply their own. I tell them it's not on an astronomy chart and that causes them great angst, knashing of teeth and tearing of clothes.

Just because you believe it, does not make it so.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
My "red flag detector" went off numerous times reading that. I don't agree with the underlying premise, much less any additional ones built on top. IOW, a House of Cards built upon a House of Software.

Further, whomever wrote that article isn't too versed in the Iron Laws either. Just read the quote above. "Supersmart hackers existing somewhere else"? Really? Where? I wonder if he knows the data flight time from New Horizons? Just for a single bit? Obviously not...

The thing about science fiction "sci-fi", is it's just that: Fiction.

Quote:
David Brin, sci-fi writer and space scientist, relates the Chinese parable of an emperor dreaming that he was a butterfly dreaming that he was an emperor. In contemporary versions, Brin said, it may be the year 2050 and people are living in a computer simulation of what life was like in the early 21st century — or it may be billions of years from now, and people are in a simulation of what primitive planets and people were once like.


What was this chinese emperor smoking? Was he seeking enlightenment or drunk on his own ego? Madmen dream as well. Often with disasterous consequences. You don't need to go too far back in history for proof.

"Billions of years from now?" Our own Sun will have gone nova and wiped out the solar system. Though it is a main sequence star, even they have limited lifetimes when talking in "billions of years".

Quote:
Philosopher Nick Bostrom, director of the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University, describes a fake universe as a "richly detailed software simulation of people, including their historical predecessors, by a very technologically advanced civilization." It's like the movie "The Matrix," Bostrom said, except that "instead of having brains in vats that are fed by sensory inputs from a simulator, the brains themselves would also be part of the simulation. It would be one big computer program simulating everything, including human brains down to neurons and synapses."


Obviously to philospher Bostrum, hard science was too hard. Weren't these the same idiots predicting "global freezing" and "mass starvation" 40 years ago? How'd that turn out? Starvation obviously isn't the problem. Obesity is. Just look around!

Quote:
His point is that all cosmic civilizations either disappear (e.g., destroy themselves) before becoming technologically capable, or all decide not to generate whole-world simulations (e.g., decide such creations are not ethical, or get bored with them). The operative word is "all" — because if even one civilization anywhere in the cosmos could generate such simulations, then simulated worlds would multiply rapidly and almost certainly humanity would be in one.


How would he know? What "cosmic civilization(s)" has Bostrum met? What was HE smoking? Dellusions of grandeur or just simply dellusions?

Further, the "operative word isn't "all". It's Bravo Sierra. He's full of it.

Quote:
As technology visionary Ray Kurzweil put it, "maybe our whole universe is a science experiment of some junior high school student in another universe." (Given how things are going, he jokes, she may not get a good grade.)

Kurzweil's worldview is based on the profound implications of what happens over time when computing power grows exponentially. To Kurzweil, a precise simulation is not meaningfully different from real reality. Corroborating the evidence that this universe runs on a computer, he says, is that "physical laws are sets of computational processes" and "information is constantly changing, being manipulated, running on some computational substrate." And that would mean, he concluded, "the universe is a computer." Kurzweil said he considers himself to be a "pattern of information."

"I'm a patternist," he said. "I think patterns, which means that information is the fundamental reality."


Well, their jr. high students must be far smarter than our own as ours have had critical thinking, wood/metal shop, chem. labs and dirt removed from their curriculum by the nanny state and PCP (pc police). "Reality? Can't have any of that here...it's too dangerous. Safety is our upmost priority."

Owl Bore has been hawking the same Bravo Sierra re: "precise simulations" vs. Reality for a few decades now. Guess who won? Mother Nature. She got a good laugh at the hubris of (some) men. The only natural law he's broken and gotten away with is Nature Abhors a Vacuum.

All humans are "pattern(s) of information." Most call them habits. There are good habits and bad habits. We're all organized by them. If quoted correctly, Kurzweil has things backwards. Information isn't the fundamental reality just because he's a patternist and thinks patterns. That's nuts.

Besides, the article is (or was) talking about the Universe. Information isn't the fundamental reality in the Universe. Mass is. Ask Einstein.

"The Difference between Genius and Stupidity is the former has limits." - Sir Albert.

Occasionally I get a dose of such "thinking" when conducting public star parties and asked by an astrologer to show them Mercury. They don't understand that it is difficult to see and never far from the Sun and definitely NOT visible when it's dark. "But the chart says..." When I ask them what chart, they reply their own. I tell them it's not on an astronomy chart and that causes them great angst, knashing of teeth and tearing of clothes.

Just because you believe it, does not make it so.











This is a very good post. There are far too many know-it-alls who think they know everything.
 
Problem with simulations is that they are only as good as the data and the parameters that are fed into it. That is why you cannot have a simulation that is self aware.
So if we are a simulation, we would never, ever be capable of even posing such a question.

Now, if someone lets their imagination loose, just like the alien crowd, then anything can be explained. The mere fact that I'm questioning the simulation can be argued that it's part of the simulation.
It's really a beautiful thing to toss out garbage like that and ask for proof from the naysayers to prove it otherwise. You simply can't.
 
The Mcdougal experiment.. keep in mind, this time in history for anyone to go against the church was blasphemous, with such pressure to find results showing that the soul has an actual weight, it's hard to immagine why a scientist would most likely find out that the publics hopes (as far as the outcome) would be justified, especially in a time where serious injury to Mcdougal was very possible if he were to show that the soul has no weight.

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I remember seeing a documentary when I was a little kid (in the 70s sometime) about scientists trying to see if our souls had actual weight. They'd hook up terminal and dying patients to a machine that could measure the most minute amount of weight. When the person passed,they immediately lost a measurable amount of weight. Anyone ever remember what that documentary was called? I've Googled it and haven't been able to find it.
 
Check out Jacques Vallee's presentation on TED about "Physics of Information". Very interesting.
 
Quote:

So many good books out there:
51Gf5cmUSnL._SX326_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Is a really good one. Krauss is one of the best astrophysicists out there.

Originally Posted By: benjamming

What a hack. His attempt at explaining nothing is soooo pathetic.

Soooo...what is "your" theory of how matter and energy came to be came to be? If your answer is that is was "always" there...thanks anyway. Prety much what folks believed 100 years ago.
 
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The fundamental limitation of science is it can only prove something based on something we already trust.

How do you test the theory when you do not know the fundamental it is based on? You cannot test whether the world is just a simulation if the simulation has no flaws for you to test against.

This, is my believe that many religious interpretations on the Beginning is actually compatible with the scientific understanding of the Beginning.
 
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Problem with simulations is that they are only as good as the data and the parameters that are fed into it. That is why you cannot have a simulation that is self aware.
So if we are a simulation, we would never, ever be capable of even posing such a question.


The problem is TRUST.

The simulation may be told a set of information that is not accurate, but cannot prove or disprove such information if there is no way to validate these information to begin with.

Example: we would not know that the earth is not flat if we were born in a prison compound, never let out, and were raised and taught only by prison guards that told us the earth is flat.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The fundamental limitation of science is it can only prove something based on something we already trust.

Not really arguing but believe it or not..Newton's Lawswhich have been "proven" over the years are fundamentally flawed and incorrect....Yet Einstein's Special and General Theories are "Theories" and replace Newtons Laws of Motion.

Just as Quantum Theory is a "Theory" and "Proven" to be more accurate than one part out of 10,000,000,000,000 and yet we really don't know exactly "why" it works...go figure.
 
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