.......talking to a brick wall
royal purple question
- Thread starter Festiva_Man
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That's why WIX, one of the most respected filter manufacturers uses a base-end (threaded end) bypass. It appears flow dynamics would leave particulate at the dome end.
If I was in the Bell Labs LCP INJ molding lab (where I was a decade ago) I could model the flow on our stacked core supercomputer overnight.
Anything else is uneducated chatter.
Ask WIX why they spec a base-end bypass for most of their product
If I was in the Bell Labs LCP INJ molding lab (where I was a decade ago) I could model the flow on our stacked core supercomputer overnight.
Anything else is uneducated chatter.
Ask WIX why they spec a base-end bypass for most of their product
At 50 psi the velocity of oil entering the filter inlet holes is very high. The oil is directed towards the can walls through the ADBV. It isn't going to make a sharp 90 degree turn and go out with a base end bypass. It's going to make a loop and take dirt, fine dirt like is in oil, from the can bottom out with it. Less, but I believe it isn't as extreme as imagined. I think of a glass of water with a hole in the side near the top, and squirting a garden hose nozzle at 50 psi toward the bottom of the glass.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Here's some of the threads i can find. In order of posting
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2935796/1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2975410
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3197094
IF you ever want to find anything on BITOG, just try this. This is what i typed into google to find this.
"Jim Allen Differential Pressure testing Site:Bobistheoilguy.com"
basically you type what you are looking for and at the end of it you type site:bobistheoilguy.com
thanks for that! i didnt know you could search by site on google, and i didnt see until just now that you can search by topics started for each user on this site instead of all posts...
i read those links which were interesting
unfortunatly his attachments are gone and it seems he stopped posting on this site very shortly after that last one and has been gone for the last year and a halfish. does anyone know if he is on another forum or somewhere else online? just a few questions i had about his testing.
Originally Posted By: Garak
You will be able to get Royal Purple filters in Canada. The bad news is you may have to get a case in by special order. Any RP dealer should be able to get you the filters that way. My RP dealer advised me I could if I so chose.
do you mean by RP dealer any place that sells their oil? or do they have dealers like amsoil?
there are lots of places that sell their oil here and i phoned a bunch of them: bumper to bumper, parts source, napa, ct.... they all said they carry just the oil and not the filters. thats why i phoned royal purple and the sales rep there told me to buy them on amazon
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Use any top tier filter-Ultra,Mobil 1,Napa Gold etc.
These will keep all the junk in the filter where it belongs.
You do know who makes RP filters don't you?
yes, i do know that champ labs makes them
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I agree with the OP to try keep the bypass at the base end in theory. But do my fleet filters have this currently - no
Thinking as an M.E., down-shift throttle blipping for rev match on MT cars could cause a very short bypass event with warm oil. Choice depends on your tolerance for bearing streaking.
Ironically, a well placed main or rod streak could possibly demonstrate BETTER oiling for a long while - until there is no bearing left
nice
but i would really hope that it doesnt bypass when warm, because then that would mean its bypassing a lot when cold. the testing by jim allen seemed to indicate that it doesnt really happen when the oil is warm.
Originally Posted By: NYSteve
If you don't trust RP oil filter engineers, why don't you design your own perfect filter and have someone build it for you? If you can design it so much better than RP, Fram, and M1, then your new filter should sell like crazy!
did i say i didnt trust him? we didnt really talk. the sales rep transfered me to him when i asked the rep where the bypass valve was of their filters. the engineer guy sounded quite ticked that he had to answer the phone. he didnt know where their bypass valve was, walked over to a filter while asking me why i cared. looked in a filter and said its on the far end so find another company. i dont blame him to be ticked, its not his job to talk to every wingnut that has a dumb question while he is in the middle of something important. thats the sales reps job so i said thanks and bye. did i say i was smarter than him? maybe he knows 15,000 things about oil filters and i know 15. but if he only knows 13 of the 15 things i know and one is important and one isnt who is smarter? nobody knows everything. also it wouldnt sell like crazy. every vehicle and nearly every part in a vehicle is a compromise. a compromise between things customers want. cost, size, weight, shape, looks, efficiency... the list goes on. each company balences all those things in different ways that they think their customers want. lets take oil filters as an example. an oil filter that 'filters the best and is awesome' would be 3 ft tall, a foot wide, have a bypass valve at the top, be made of 12 guage steel, filter 98.9% at 1 micron while being full flow, have magnets it it. that would extend your oci's from cooler oil and increasing your sump capasity. but is that the best? no, it would cost too much, waste too much oil when people change their synthectic oil at 1000km, be too big, weigh the car down, be hard to move and install... so a compromise is made. thats why we have a million different oil filters all different levels of compromise on each point. that aside, do you trust engineers? the ones at GM who decided that it was too hard for people to turn their keys so they would make it easier and ended up killing a bunch of people? the ones that decided where to put the pinto's gas tank? look at all the recalls the last couple years. engineers arent stupid, they are smarter in their area than probably any of us, but they arent perfect and dont think of everything. and some companies do put the bypass valve in the other location... the downside is you have less room for filter media. that is most likely the reason not as many companies do it. more filter media is a higher priority than bypass valve location for their sales.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
That's why WIX, one of the most respected filter manufacturers uses a base-end (threaded end) bypass. It appears flow dynamics would leave particulate at the dome end.
If I was in the Bell Labs LCP INJ molding lab (where I was a decade ago) I could model the flow on our stacked core supercomputer overnight.
Anything else is uneducated chatter.
Ask WIX why they spec a base-end bypass for most of their product
the toys we get to play with at work
i did, about a year ago. when i first noticed they were changing some and not others i phoned to ask why. after explaining to the lady what a bypass valve is and where it is she put me on hold for 30 seconds and got back to me to say it doesnt matter where it is
Here's some of the threads i can find. In order of posting
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2935796/1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2975410
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3197094
IF you ever want to find anything on BITOG, just try this. This is what i typed into google to find this.
"Jim Allen Differential Pressure testing Site:Bobistheoilguy.com"
basically you type what you are looking for and at the end of it you type site:bobistheoilguy.com
thanks for that! i didnt know you could search by site on google, and i didnt see until just now that you can search by topics started for each user on this site instead of all posts...
i read those links which were interesting
Originally Posted By: Garak
You will be able to get Royal Purple filters in Canada. The bad news is you may have to get a case in by special order. Any RP dealer should be able to get you the filters that way. My RP dealer advised me I could if I so chose.
do you mean by RP dealer any place that sells their oil? or do they have dealers like amsoil?
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Use any top tier filter-Ultra,Mobil 1,Napa Gold etc.
These will keep all the junk in the filter where it belongs.
You do know who makes RP filters don't you?
yes, i do know that champ labs makes them
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I agree with the OP to try keep the bypass at the base end in theory. But do my fleet filters have this currently - no
Thinking as an M.E., down-shift throttle blipping for rev match on MT cars could cause a very short bypass event with warm oil. Choice depends on your tolerance for bearing streaking. Ironically, a well placed main or rod streak could possibly demonstrate BETTER oiling for a long while - until there is no bearing left
nice
Originally Posted By: NYSteve
If you don't trust RP oil filter engineers, why don't you design your own perfect filter and have someone build it for you? If you can design it so much better than RP, Fram, and M1, then your new filter should sell like crazy!
did i say i didnt trust him? we didnt really talk. the sales rep transfered me to him when i asked the rep where the bypass valve was of their filters. the engineer guy sounded quite ticked that he had to answer the phone. he didnt know where their bypass valve was, walked over to a filter while asking me why i cared. looked in a filter and said its on the far end so find another company. i dont blame him to be ticked, its not his job to talk to every wingnut that has a dumb question while he is in the middle of something important. thats the sales reps job so i said thanks and bye. did i say i was smarter than him? maybe he knows 15,000 things about oil filters and i know 15. but if he only knows 13 of the 15 things i know and one is important and one isnt who is smarter? nobody knows everything. also it wouldnt sell like crazy. every vehicle and nearly every part in a vehicle is a compromise. a compromise between things customers want. cost, size, weight, shape, looks, efficiency... the list goes on. each company balences all those things in different ways that they think their customers want. lets take oil filters as an example. an oil filter that 'filters the best and is awesome' would be 3 ft tall, a foot wide, have a bypass valve at the top, be made of 12 guage steel, filter 98.9% at 1 micron while being full flow, have magnets it it. that would extend your oci's from cooler oil and increasing your sump capasity. but is that the best? no, it would cost too much, waste too much oil when people change their synthectic oil at 1000km, be too big, weigh the car down, be hard to move and install... so a compromise is made. thats why we have a million different oil filters all different levels of compromise on each point. that aside, do you trust engineers? the ones at GM who decided that it was too hard for people to turn their keys so they would make it easier and ended up killing a bunch of people? the ones that decided where to put the pinto's gas tank? look at all the recalls the last couple years. engineers arent stupid, they are smarter in their area than probably any of us, but they arent perfect and dont think of everything. and some companies do put the bypass valve in the other location... the downside is you have less room for filter media. that is most likely the reason not as many companies do it. more filter media is a higher priority than bypass valve location for their sales.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
That's why WIX, one of the most respected filter manufacturers uses a base-end (threaded end) bypass. It appears flow dynamics would leave particulate at the dome end.
If I was in the Bell Labs LCP INJ molding lab (where I was a decade ago) I could model the flow on our stacked core supercomputer overnight.
Anything else is uneducated chatter.
Ask WIX why they spec a base-end bypass for most of their product
the toys we get to play with at work
i did, about a year ago. when i first noticed they were changing some and not others i phoned to ask why. after explaining to the lady what a bypass valve is and where it is she put me on hold for 30 seconds and got back to me to say it doesnt matter where it is
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
At 50 psi the velocity of oil entering the filter inlet holes is very high. The oil is directed towards the can walls through the ADBV. It isn't going to make a sharp 90 degree turn and go out with a base end bypass. It's going to make a loop and take dirt, fine dirt like is in oil, from the can bottom out with it. Less, but I believe it isn't as extreme as imagined. I think of a glass of water with a hole in the side near the top, and squirting a garden hose nozzle at 50 psi toward the bottom of the glass.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
I talked to an engineer at royal purple briefly, he believes every single particle gets buried so hard in the media that it doesnt matter. Didnt want to talk about it when i said the filters i cut apart arent like that.
The RP engineer is right. You're missing a key point here... when bypass DOES occur, it occurs AFTER the rated pressure has already developed across the media due to flow through the media. For example- if bypass happens at 8 PSI, then oil must already be flowing through the media fast enough to develop an 8 PSI differential across the media, and that flow firmly pins all debris to the media BEFORE the bypass valve opens.
When you cut a filter open, there's zero pressure differential, and the leftover oil in the filter even flows backwards through the media to drain out, and then gets further sloshed and swirled around as you're cutting.
You're worrying about the wrong things. You should be wondering why whatever oil you're using is letting crunchy bits form in the crankcase in the first place... that's not acceptable.
thank you both for taking the time to actually try to explain to my why i am wrong, rather than just say im stupid because i disagree and use fram.
i agree the velocity is reasonably high. pressure doesnt make a difference, but flow numbers i have seen for your regular driving rpm's are around 4-5 gpm for a pickup truck engine. i am not sure if that is unpressurized just spinning the pump in some oil, or if its whats pumped through a car. i am assuming the first since no temperatures of the oil was given in what i saw and it was a sales pitch for oil pumps so that number would be higher. any pressure would decrease flow in a gear pump. at 4gpm that would be 2.5Litres in 10 seconds. or 250ml/second. or the entire 3.2L sump on a car in about 12.5 seconds if the flow rate is the same in a car.
here is a picture, i think there is lots of room for the oil to flow through it. not much oil has to go through there to equalize pressure.
hmm, i would disagree. i dont think you need any flow through the media to have a differential pressure. as an extreme example if you put straight sae 50 grade oil in your sump and started your car in -15c what would probably happen is you would build up pressure in the outside of the can. once you got to 8 psi on the outside and no oil had gone through the filter you would have zero psi and no oil inside and 8psi on the outside so the bypass would open.
if your car gets hot before you turn it off you had very thin, fluid oil putting contaminates onto the filter media at about 40-50psi with a good flow. when you start the car when its cold you get 80-90psi of very viscous oil with moderate flow. to me if the bypass valve opens that high pressure viscous oil is going to take stuff off the media that wasnt well stuck on or even fell off when you shut your car off.
lol, maybe everyone elses bypass valve puts their crunchy bits back into the sump and bearings.
but in all seriousness how would i figure that out? i dont have a microscope to even try to look at what they are and there was nothing unusual in my uoa. any suggestions on what it might be or how to find out?
after reading jim allens posts i would like to ask him a few questions and see his data as it is gone, but he doesnt appear to be active on this site anymore. so here is what i think and my questions from his data, maybe some of you can answer. i think when the oil is going through the filter it would act like any other flowing liquid that changes directions and have areas where there would be pockets of no flow- just the same oil stays there- and some of less flow. there would be areas where sediment or contaminates being heavier than the oil would settle and kind of stay. on a horizontal or right side up filter probably near the endcap since the oil is doing a 180 degree turn and the dirt is heavier and has more velocity. with Jim allens testing i cant say for sure because the data is gone, but he did not mention testing below 0c. he used a heavy oil (10w30) that probably mimiced proper grade oil at -10c, but still not that cold and it did bypass at startup. i start my car in -35 or -40c with 5w30. also, he had a pressure guage hooked up before the filter and after the filter to check differential pressure. this is what im not sure of. the bypass valve is a spring, thats it. its strength is rated to begin to open at 8psi differential pressure and take 11psi to fully open (on mine). so guage readings before the bypass opened were obviously accurite and straightforeward. but once you hit 8.1psi the valve cracks open to equalize pressure. once it equalizes and goes down to 8psi the spring closes. it doesnt let the differential pressure go down to 0psi before closing but 8. so i am not sure how you would be able to tell if it was just slightly opening or not once it got around 8psi. it doesnt take much flow through the valve to equalize pressure when the oil is that cold as its hardly moving. if the spring opened and that didnt do enough to equalize pressure it would keep increasing until 11psi where its opened to the max. but flow increases greatly the farther its open. looking a the flow rate of the pump with warm oil and maybe no back pressure ill just pull out a random number and say your getting 1gpm at 85psi at 1500rpm idle when first started in the cold. thats 63ml/second or 630ml in 10 seconds. i would reason that with a fully open bypass valve you could almost get that flow at that pressure and viscosity entirely though the bypass valve hole alone, so it doesnt need to open much to equalize pressure. what do you guys think?
At 50 psi the velocity of oil entering the filter inlet holes is very high. The oil is directed towards the can walls through the ADBV. It isn't going to make a sharp 90 degree turn and go out with a base end bypass. It's going to make a loop and take dirt, fine dirt like is in oil, from the can bottom out with it. Less, but I believe it isn't as extreme as imagined. I think of a glass of water with a hole in the side near the top, and squirting a garden hose nozzle at 50 psi toward the bottom of the glass.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
I talked to an engineer at royal purple briefly, he believes every single particle gets buried so hard in the media that it doesnt matter. Didnt want to talk about it when i said the filters i cut apart arent like that.
The RP engineer is right. You're missing a key point here... when bypass DOES occur, it occurs AFTER the rated pressure has already developed across the media due to flow through the media. For example- if bypass happens at 8 PSI, then oil must already be flowing through the media fast enough to develop an 8 PSI differential across the media, and that flow firmly pins all debris to the media BEFORE the bypass valve opens.
When you cut a filter open, there's zero pressure differential, and the leftover oil in the filter even flows backwards through the media to drain out, and then gets further sloshed and swirled around as you're cutting.
You're worrying about the wrong things. You should be wondering why whatever oil you're using is letting crunchy bits form in the crankcase in the first place... that's not acceptable.
thank you both for taking the time to actually try to explain to my why i am wrong, rather than just say im stupid because i disagree and use fram.
i agree the velocity is reasonably high. pressure doesnt make a difference, but flow numbers i have seen for your regular driving rpm's are around 4-5 gpm for a pickup truck engine. i am not sure if that is unpressurized just spinning the pump in some oil, or if its whats pumped through a car. i am assuming the first since no temperatures of the oil was given in what i saw and it was a sales pitch for oil pumps so that number would be higher. any pressure would decrease flow in a gear pump. at 4gpm that would be 2.5Litres in 10 seconds. or 250ml/second. or the entire 3.2L sump on a car in about 12.5 seconds if the flow rate is the same in a car.
here is a picture, i think there is lots of room for the oil to flow through it. not much oil has to go through there to equalize pressure.
hmm, i would disagree. i dont think you need any flow through the media to have a differential pressure. as an extreme example if you put straight sae 50 grade oil in your sump and started your car in -15c what would probably happen is you would build up pressure in the outside of the can. once you got to 8 psi on the outside and no oil had gone through the filter you would have zero psi and no oil inside and 8psi on the outside so the bypass would open.
if your car gets hot before you turn it off you had very thin, fluid oil putting contaminates onto the filter media at about 40-50psi with a good flow. when you start the car when its cold you get 80-90psi of very viscous oil with moderate flow. to me if the bypass valve opens that high pressure viscous oil is going to take stuff off the media that wasnt well stuck on or even fell off when you shut your car off.
lol, maybe everyone elses bypass valve puts their crunchy bits back into the sump and bearings.
after reading jim allens posts i would like to ask him a few questions and see his data as it is gone, but he doesnt appear to be active on this site anymore. so here is what i think and my questions from his data, maybe some of you can answer. i think when the oil is going through the filter it would act like any other flowing liquid that changes directions and have areas where there would be pockets of no flow- just the same oil stays there- and some of less flow. there would be areas where sediment or contaminates being heavier than the oil would settle and kind of stay. on a horizontal or right side up filter probably near the endcap since the oil is doing a 180 degree turn and the dirt is heavier and has more velocity. with Jim allens testing i cant say for sure because the data is gone, but he did not mention testing below 0c. he used a heavy oil (10w30) that probably mimiced proper grade oil at -10c, but still not that cold and it did bypass at startup. i start my car in -35 or -40c with 5w30. also, he had a pressure guage hooked up before the filter and after the filter to check differential pressure. this is what im not sure of. the bypass valve is a spring, thats it. its strength is rated to begin to open at 8psi differential pressure and take 11psi to fully open (on mine). so guage readings before the bypass opened were obviously accurite and straightforeward. but once you hit 8.1psi the valve cracks open to equalize pressure. once it equalizes and goes down to 8psi the spring closes. it doesnt let the differential pressure go down to 0psi before closing but 8. so i am not sure how you would be able to tell if it was just slightly opening or not once it got around 8psi. it doesnt take much flow through the valve to equalize pressure when the oil is that cold as its hardly moving. if the spring opened and that didnt do enough to equalize pressure it would keep increasing until 11psi where its opened to the max. but flow increases greatly the farther its open. looking a the flow rate of the pump with warm oil and maybe no back pressure ill just pull out a random number and say your getting 1gpm at 85psi at 1500rpm idle when first started in the cold. thats 63ml/second or 630ml in 10 seconds. i would reason that with a fully open bypass valve you could almost get that flow at that pressure and viscosity entirely though the bypass valve hole alone, so it doesnt need to open much to equalize pressure. what do you guys think?
Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
do you mean by RP dealer any place that sells their oil?
I mean a place like Bumper to Bumper, yes, or another parts store, preferably one even more independent than that, that happens to sell the RP oil. Partsource won't be able to help you, since they're basically Canadian Tire. If you have to buy them online, well, that's another option, too. My RP dealer can get them, as I mentioned, but he said I'd have to buy a case.
do you mean by RP dealer any place that sells their oil?
I mean a place like Bumper to Bumper, yes, or another parts store, preferably one even more independent than that, that happens to sell the RP oil. Partsource won't be able to help you, since they're basically Canadian Tire. If you have to buy them online, well, that's another option, too. My RP dealer can get them, as I mentioned, but he said I'd have to buy a case.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
do you mean by RP dealer any place that sells their oil?
I mean a place like Bumper to Bumper, yes, or another parts store, preferably one even more independent than that, that happens to sell the RP oil. Partsource won't be able to help you, since they're basically Canadian Tire. If you have to buy them online, well, that's another option, too. My RP dealer can get them, as I mentioned, but he said I'd have to buy a case.
Good to know, thanks!
Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
do you mean by RP dealer any place that sells their oil?
I mean a place like Bumper to Bumper, yes, or another parts store, preferably one even more independent than that, that happens to sell the RP oil. Partsource won't be able to help you, since they're basically Canadian Tire. If you have to buy them online, well, that's another option, too. My RP dealer can get them, as I mentioned, but he said I'd have to buy a case.
Good to know, thanks!
Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
At 50 psi the velocity of oil entering the filter inlet holes is very high. The oil is directed towards the can walls through the ADBV. It isn't going to make a sharp 90 degree turn and go out with a base end bypass. It's going to make a loop and take dirt, fine dirt like is in oil, from the can bottom out with it. Less, but I believe it isn't as extreme as imagined. I think of a glass of water with a hole in the side near the top, and squirting a garden hose nozzle at 50 psi toward the bottom of the glass.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
I talked to an engineer at royal purple briefly, he believes every single particle gets buried so hard in the media that it doesnt matter. Didnt want to talk about it when i said the filters i cut apart arent like that.
The RP engineer is right. You're missing a key point here... when bypass DOES occur, it occurs AFTER the rated pressure has already developed across the media due to flow through the media. For example- if bypass happens at 8 PSI, then oil must already be flowing through the media fast enough to develop an 8 PSI differential across the media, and that flow firmly pins all debris to the media BEFORE the bypass valve opens.
When you cut a filter open, there's zero pressure differential, and the leftover oil in the filter even flows backwards through the media to drain out, and then gets further sloshed and swirled around as you're cutting.
You're worrying about the wrong things. You should be wondering why whatever oil you're using is letting crunchy bits form in the crankcase in the first place... that's not acceptable.
thank you both for taking the time to actually try to explain to my why i am wrong, rather than just say im stupid because i disagree and use fram.
i agree the velocity is reasonably high. pressure doesnt make a difference, but flow numbers i have seen for your regular driving rpm's are around 4-5 gpm for a pickup truck engine. i am not sure if that is unpressurized just spinning the pump in some oil, or if its whats pumped through a car. i am assuming the first since no temperatures of the oil was given in what i saw and it was a sales pitch for oil pumps so that number would be higher. any pressure would decrease flow in a gear pump. at 4gpm that would be 2.5Litres in 10 seconds. or 250ml/second. or the entire 3.2L sump on a car in about 12.5 seconds if the flow rate is the same in a car.
here is a picture, i think there is lots of room for the oil to flow through it. not much oil has to go through there to equalize pressure.
hmm, i would disagree. i dont think you need any flow through the media to have a differential pressure. as an extreme example if you put straight sae 50 grade oil in your sump and started your car in -15c what would probably happen is you would build up pressure in the outside of the can. once you got to 8 psi on the outside and no oil had gone through the filter you would have zero psi and no oil inside and 8psi on the outside so the bypass would open.
if your car gets hot before you turn it off you had very thin, fluid oil putting contaminates onto the filter media at about 40-50psi with a good flow. when you start the car when its cold you get 80-90psi of very viscous oil with moderate flow. to me if the bypass valve opens that high pressure viscous oil is going to take stuff off the media that wasnt well stuck on or even fell off when you shut your car off.
lol, maybe everyone elses bypass valve puts their crunchy bits back into the sump and bearings.
but in all seriousness how would i figure that out? i dont have a microscope to even try to look at what they are and there was nothing unusual in my uoa. any suggestions on what it might be or how to find out?
after reading jim allens posts i would like to ask him a few questions and see his data as it is gone, but he doesnt appear to be active on this site anymore. so here is what i think and my questions from his data, maybe some of you can answer. i think when the oil is going through the filter it would act like any other flowing liquid that changes directions and have areas where there would be pockets of no flow- just the same oil stays there- and some of less flow. there would be areas where sediment or contaminates being heavier than the oil would settle and kind of stay. on a horizontal or right side up filter probably near the endcap since the oil is doing a 180 degree turn and the dirt is heavier and has more velocity. with Jim allens testing i cant say for sure because the data is gone, but he did not mention testing below 0c. he used a heavy oil (10w30) that probably mimiced proper grade oil at -10c, but still not that cold and it did bypass at startup. i start my car in -35 or -40c with 5w30. also, he had a pressure guage hooked up before the filter and after the filter to check differential pressure. this is what im not sure of. the bypass valve is a spring, thats it. its strength is rated to begin to open at 8psi differential pressure and take 11psi to fully open (on mine). so guage readings before the bypass opened were obviously accurite and straightforeward. but once you hit 8.1psi the valve cracks open to equalize pressure. once it equalizes and goes down to 8psi the spring closes. it doesnt let the differential pressure go down to 0psi before closing but 8. so i am not sure how you would be able to tell if it was just slightly opening or not once it got around 8psi. it doesnt take much flow through the valve to equalize pressure when the oil is that cold as its hardly moving. if the spring opened and that didnt do enough to equalize pressure it would keep increasing until 11psi where its opened to the max. but flow increases greatly the farther its open. looking a the flow rate of the pump with warm oil and maybe no back pressure ill just pull out a random number and say your getting 1gpm at 85psi at 1500rpm idle when first started in the cold. thats 63ml/second or 630ml in 10 seconds. i would reason that with a fully open bypass valve you could almost get that flow at that pressure and viscosity entirely though the bypass valve hole alone, so it doesnt need to open much to equalize pressure. what do you guys think?
Jim's data showed that you needed thick, viscous cold oil, combined with fairly high RPMs on a cold start to get a bypass event to occur-then it usually lasted fractions of a second. If you use a correct grade of oil, & can keep your foot out of the throttle until the oil starts to warm up, bypass events are virtually non-existent. If you called RP for a filter engineer, IMO you would have gotten Champ Labs (maker of Fram, Luberfiner, RP, & others).
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
At 50 psi the velocity of oil entering the filter inlet holes is very high. The oil is directed towards the can walls through the ADBV. It isn't going to make a sharp 90 degree turn and go out with a base end bypass. It's going to make a loop and take dirt, fine dirt like is in oil, from the can bottom out with it. Less, but I believe it isn't as extreme as imagined. I think of a glass of water with a hole in the side near the top, and squirting a garden hose nozzle at 50 psi toward the bottom of the glass.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Festiva_Man
I talked to an engineer at royal purple briefly, he believes every single particle gets buried so hard in the media that it doesnt matter. Didnt want to talk about it when i said the filters i cut apart arent like that.
The RP engineer is right. You're missing a key point here... when bypass DOES occur, it occurs AFTER the rated pressure has already developed across the media due to flow through the media. For example- if bypass happens at 8 PSI, then oil must already be flowing through the media fast enough to develop an 8 PSI differential across the media, and that flow firmly pins all debris to the media BEFORE the bypass valve opens.
When you cut a filter open, there's zero pressure differential, and the leftover oil in the filter even flows backwards through the media to drain out, and then gets further sloshed and swirled around as you're cutting.
You're worrying about the wrong things. You should be wondering why whatever oil you're using is letting crunchy bits form in the crankcase in the first place... that's not acceptable.
thank you both for taking the time to actually try to explain to my why i am wrong, rather than just say im stupid because i disagree and use fram.
i agree the velocity is reasonably high. pressure doesnt make a difference, but flow numbers i have seen for your regular driving rpm's are around 4-5 gpm for a pickup truck engine. i am not sure if that is unpressurized just spinning the pump in some oil, or if its whats pumped through a car. i am assuming the first since no temperatures of the oil was given in what i saw and it was a sales pitch for oil pumps so that number would be higher. any pressure would decrease flow in a gear pump. at 4gpm that would be 2.5Litres in 10 seconds. or 250ml/second. or the entire 3.2L sump on a car in about 12.5 seconds if the flow rate is the same in a car.
here is a picture, i think there is lots of room for the oil to flow through it. not much oil has to go through there to equalize pressure.
hmm, i would disagree. i dont think you need any flow through the media to have a differential pressure. as an extreme example if you put straight sae 50 grade oil in your sump and started your car in -15c what would probably happen is you would build up pressure in the outside of the can. once you got to 8 psi on the outside and no oil had gone through the filter you would have zero psi and no oil inside and 8psi on the outside so the bypass would open.
if your car gets hot before you turn it off you had very thin, fluid oil putting contaminates onto the filter media at about 40-50psi with a good flow. when you start the car when its cold you get 80-90psi of very viscous oil with moderate flow. to me if the bypass valve opens that high pressure viscous oil is going to take stuff off the media that wasnt well stuck on or even fell off when you shut your car off.
lol, maybe everyone elses bypass valve puts their crunchy bits back into the sump and bearings.
after reading jim allens posts i would like to ask him a few questions and see his data as it is gone, but he doesnt appear to be active on this site anymore. so here is what i think and my questions from his data, maybe some of you can answer. i think when the oil is going through the filter it would act like any other flowing liquid that changes directions and have areas where there would be pockets of no flow- just the same oil stays there- and some of less flow. there would be areas where sediment or contaminates being heavier than the oil would settle and kind of stay. on a horizontal or right side up filter probably near the endcap since the oil is doing a 180 degree turn and the dirt is heavier and has more velocity. with Jim allens testing i cant say for sure because the data is gone, but he did not mention testing below 0c. he used a heavy oil (10w30) that probably mimiced proper grade oil at -10c, but still not that cold and it did bypass at startup. i start my car in -35 or -40c with 5w30. also, he had a pressure guage hooked up before the filter and after the filter to check differential pressure. this is what im not sure of. the bypass valve is a spring, thats it. its strength is rated to begin to open at 8psi differential pressure and take 11psi to fully open (on mine). so guage readings before the bypass opened were obviously accurite and straightforeward. but once you hit 8.1psi the valve cracks open to equalize pressure. once it equalizes and goes down to 8psi the spring closes. it doesnt let the differential pressure go down to 0psi before closing but 8. so i am not sure how you would be able to tell if it was just slightly opening or not once it got around 8psi. it doesnt take much flow through the valve to equalize pressure when the oil is that cold as its hardly moving. if the spring opened and that didnt do enough to equalize pressure it would keep increasing until 11psi where its opened to the max. but flow increases greatly the farther its open. looking a the flow rate of the pump with warm oil and maybe no back pressure ill just pull out a random number and say your getting 1gpm at 85psi at 1500rpm idle when first started in the cold. thats 63ml/second or 630ml in 10 seconds. i would reason that with a fully open bypass valve you could almost get that flow at that pressure and viscosity entirely though the bypass valve hole alone, so it doesnt need to open much to equalize pressure. what do you guys think?
Jim's data showed that you needed thick, viscous cold oil, combined with fairly high RPMs on a cold start to get a bypass event to occur-then it usually lasted fractions of a second. If you use a correct grade of oil, & can keep your foot out of the throttle until the oil starts to warm up, bypass events are virtually non-existent. If you called RP for a filter engineer, IMO you would have gotten Champ Labs (maker of Fram, Luberfiner, RP, & others).
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
If you called RP for a filter engineer, IMO you would have gotten Champ Labs (maker of Fram, Luberfiner, RP, & others).
I'm speculating here since I don't work at RP, but....
I doubt that. If you call RP and ask an engineering question, you'd get the engineer at RP who is in charge of writing the specs for their filters and doing the acceptance testing on what Champion Labs produces for them according to those specs. They may not make the filters in-house, but that doesn't mean they don't have a competent filter engineer. Same goes for all the companies that outsource production to Champion- like Mobil 1, Amsoil, K&N, and a whole huge laundry list. A production engineer at Champion would be able to read back to you all the specs that their customer (RP, Amsoil, whoever) provided and tell you about the manufacturing process, but the engineer who WROTE those specs is the one who could explain the thought process behind the specs- such as why choose dome-end vs base-end bypass.
If you called RP for a filter engineer, IMO you would have gotten Champ Labs (maker of Fram, Luberfiner, RP, & others).
I'm speculating here since I don't work at RP, but....
I doubt that. If you call RP and ask an engineering question, you'd get the engineer at RP who is in charge of writing the specs for their filters and doing the acceptance testing on what Champion Labs produces for them according to those specs. They may not make the filters in-house, but that doesn't mean they don't have a competent filter engineer. Same goes for all the companies that outsource production to Champion- like Mobil 1, Amsoil, K&N, and a whole huge laundry list. A production engineer at Champion would be able to read back to you all the specs that their customer (RP, Amsoil, whoever) provided and tell you about the manufacturing process, but the engineer who WROTE those specs is the one who could explain the thought process behind the specs- such as why choose dome-end vs base-end bypass.
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