Airstrikes in Syria.

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I see where you are coming from, but that's terribly close to blaming all people of a certain type for racist treatment in our nation, another thing I don't subscribe to.

I don't look at somebody and tell them that it's their problem to fix "their people". If anything, I'd expect a person who doesn't agree with something like that to stay as far away from those idiots as possible.

Why would I want to get near somebody who might want to "put me to the sword" for being a "traitor" or whatever.

For example, I know I'm not going to walk into a Klan meeting and try to convince them that their religious beliefs are incorrect. That job is for the FBI and the police.

I understand what your motivations are, but what you are talking about is impractical.


I agree with this.

But we do need more Muslim leaders to emerge who personify and proudly promote the idea that muslims can be muslims in western societies while adhering to and promoting western ideas of liberty, equality and tolerance. There seems to be an imbalance between such voices and those who act or support acts contrary to US interests and western beliefs.

For Overkill, here is one very impressive individual however: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maajid_Nawaz

 

[gman2304]

Still waiting on on an American Muslim official to denounce the murder and attempted murder in OK Friday...2 days and counting.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Islam has been around for thousands of years, why is it just within the last 20 years they've gotten so radical?


Some have always been radical. But with technology, the ability to network and network across continents is part of the difference. In the last 20 years we have cell phones and social media. Before cell phones, they were just guys sitting in the rocky mountains.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
Still waiting on on an American Muslim official to denounce the murder and attempted murder in OK Friday...2 days and counting.


Don't hold your breath. It would be an amazing thing to see.

Maybe if we can just get a few to speak up others would follow. I have Muslim clients that are horrified at this crazy stuff, but they aren't about to draw attention, either...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14


But we do need more Muslim leaders to emerge who personify and proudly promote the idea that muslims can be muslims in western societies while adhering to and promoting western ideas of liberty, equality and tolerance. There seems to be an imbalance between such voices and those who act or support acts contrary to US interests and western beliefs.

For Overkill, here is one very impressive individual however: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maajid_Nawaz


Agreed, and thanks for the share! What an interesting read. Somebody who has truly worked to turn their life around and has experienced both sides of this quagmire.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: gman2304
6% of what...6% of how many?


You will not get much detailed information. The source cited is loonwatch, as you may have guessed loonwatch attempts to discredit information published about radical Muslims and tries to justify their actions with diversion and distraction. This is a review about the site.

"One permanent article on Loonwatch is: ‘All Terrorists are Muslims… Except the 94% that Aren’t’

When you read the small print, the percentages are only actually about the situation in the United States (which neither the writer — Danios — nor the title make clears); which has a big problem, according to Loonwatch, with ‘Latino’ terrorism. However, most of that Latino terrorism is very low-level — hardly anyone has been killed.

Everyone is well aware that all sorts of non-Islamic groups have bombed places and buildings. (In England and the U.S. animal rights activists have done so.) But there is a big difference between all Islamic bombings and most other attacks. (The attacks Loonwatch is talking about are in the U.S.) In most cases of the latter, the bombings weren’t carried out specifically in order to kill civilians; but to intimidate and scare. In the Muslim terrorism case, virtually every bombing is designed specifically to kill civilians. In fact I’ve never heard of an Islamic terrorist attack which was only aimed at a building or designed simply to intimidate rather than kill. Most Islamist bombs are designed to kill civilians — and that is the source of the terror. Most other non-Muslim bombings — specifically in the U.S. and Europe — are designed to scare or intimidate."



I'm pretty sure Timothy McVeigh meant to kill civilians. Ironically, he wiped out part of a child care center because he was upset about abortion...

 

[DoubleWasp]

The KKK is a group, like AL Qaeda, ISIS, or Hizbollah is a group. They all have a religious basis to their fanaticism, and nobody can very well reason with these people.

There clearly is resistance against these groups by Muslims, just based on the fact that a group like ISIS has to fight for territory at all. There have to be a whole lot of other Muslims picking up guns, tanks, planes, boms, etc, in order to hold these psychos at bay. The amount of Muslim refugees from these conflicts also shows there is no love between ISIS and a large contingent of the Muslim community.

The problem here is that Emirates bombing ISIS doesn't make a whole lot of headlines. The clear and tangible link that the amount of fighting going on against ISIS and the amount of Muslim bodies left behind means that for every non-Muslim getting killed, there must be at least 1,000 Muslims. They're executing Iraqi security forces, killing and raping Muslims in droves, and engaged in bitter fighting with other Muslims. The media wants to show and print stories about bloodthirsty Muslims, because that is what the biased people want to see. Stories about the good Muslims who think extremism is a total and complete nightmare do not make headlines, because that would make people feel less threatened, and then they wouldn't want to watch the news as much.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
Still waiting on on an American Muslim official to denounce the murder and attempted murder in OK Friday...2 days and counting.


Here's a Google of Islamic leaders denouncing things:

https://www.google.com/search?q=american+muslims+renoncue+killing&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#q=american+muslims+denounce+killing&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&tbm=nws

Maybe if you look hard enough, you'll find one denouncing some psychotic, sociopathic [censored] that chose Islam and a panacea for his mental illness....

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: gman2304
6% of what...6% of how many?


You will not get much detailed information. The source cited is loonwatch, as you may have guessed loonwatch attempts to discredit information published about radical Muslims and tries to justify their actions with diversion and distraction. This is a review about the site.

"One permanent article on Loonwatch is: ‘All Terrorists are Muslims… Except the 94% that Aren’t’

When you read the small print, the percentages are only actually about the situation in the United States (which neither the writer — Danios — nor the title make clears); which has a big problem, according to Loonwatch, with ‘Latino’ terrorism. However, most of that Latino terrorism is very low-level — hardly anyone has been killed.

Everyone is well aware that all sorts of non-Islamic groups have bombed places and buildings. (In England and the U.S. animal rights activists have done so.) But there is a big difference between all Islamic bombings and most other attacks. (The attacks Loonwatch is talking about are in the U.S.) In most cases of the latter, the bombings weren’t carried out specifically in order to kill civilians; but to intimidate and scare. In the Muslim terrorism case, virtually every bombing is designed specifically to kill civilians. In fact I’ve never heard of an Islamic terrorist attack which was only aimed at a building or designed simply to intimidate rather than kill. Most Islamist bombs are designed to kill civilians — and that is the source of the terror. Most other non-Muslim bombings — specifically in the U.S. and Europe — are designed to scare or intimidate."



I'm pretty sure Timothy McVeigh meant to kill civilians. Ironically, he wiped out part of a child care center because he was upset about abortion...


Come on now. He apologized for the collateral damage. That's fair enough in my book. No Muslim terrorist would ever do this, so obviously Christian child-killing terrorists are a cut above Muslim terrorists, and we should prefer Christian terrorists over Muslim ones.

 

[gman2304]

The EA has been bombing ISIS for about a week...since the president put the 'coalition' together. Yeah, the EA has been all over it.... 'Rolls eyes'. The psychotic, sociopath with the mental illness you're referencing is the Muslim convert who beheaded the woman and was attempting to kill another in the 'work place' violence incident in OK 2 days ago I presume. I depend on mainstream prime time broadcast news and newspapers for the bulk of my news, not having to google on the WWW to 'FIND OUT' whats going on in the world. Still waiting as day 2 passes without a prominent American Muslim to denounce this heinous act!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The KKK is a group, like AL Qaeda, ISIS, or Hizbollah is a group. They all have a religious basis to their fanaticism,


While one version of the KKK is very loosely based on Christianity (and formally denounced BTW), they are not doing their acts in the name of a particular religion. They are a horrible hate group, not really a formal religious group. They also aren't actively expanding into other countries, recruiting others to their belief system and teaching their horror to children in purpose-built churches.

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
and nobody can very well reason with these people.


And this is extremely sad but true. None of them are looking at having a reasonable/rational conversation about anything pertaining to their beliefs. Even questioning them puts you on their dirty TP list.

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
There clearly is resistance against these groups by Muslims, just based on the fact that a group like ISIS has to fight for territory at all. There have to be a whole lot of other Muslims picking up guns, tanks, planes, boms, etc, in order to hold these psychos at bay. The amount of Muslim refugees from these conflicts also shows there is no love between ISIS and a large contingent of the Muslim community.


In the Middle East, I think you are probably quite right. However my concern at the moment isn't what is happening over there but rather what is happening in the GTA, seemingly unchecked by the rest of the Muslim population there. I know we can't talk about one without the other but I think we all become a bit more sensitive to a situation when it is a few miles away rather than across an ocean.

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The problem here is that Emirates bombing ISIS doesn't make a whole lot of headlines. The clear and tangible link that the amount of fighting going on against ISIS and the amount of Muslim bodies left behind means that for every non-Muslim getting killed, there must be at least 1,000 Muslims. They're executing Iraqi security forces, killing and raping Muslims in droves, and engaged in bitter fighting with other Muslims. The media wants to show and print stories about bloodthirsty Muslims, because that is what the biased people want to see. Stories about the good Muslims who think extremism is a total and complete nightmare do not make headlines, because that would make people feel less threatened, and then they wouldn't want to watch the news as much.


Underlined for truth. The media is a fear-generating machine. Fear sells. It is the repercussions of this fear that I am concerned about, and noted in my earlier post.

To come back to what we touched on earlier though: I understand that perhaps it seems impractical to expect the Muslim populations living in places like Britain, Canada, the USA...etc to speak out against the extremists operating in their communities. I realize the potential for backlash is there and that they don't want to fear for their lives. But something has to be said/done or this will just continue to escalate.

I don't know what the solution is, I just see the situation getting further and further out of control and know that something has to be done to diffuse it. Sitting by and not getting involved doesn't seem to be getting the job done.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
The EA has been bombing ISIS for about a week...since the president put the 'coalition' together. Yeah, the EA has been all over it.... 'Rolls eyes'. The psychotic, sociopath with the mental illness you're referencing is the Muslim convert who beheaded the woman and was attempting to kill another in the 'work place' violence incident in OK 2 days ago I presume. I depend on mainstream prime time broadcast news and newspapers for the bulk of my news, not having to google on the WWW to 'FIND OUT' whats going on in the world. Still waiting as day 2 passes without a prominent American Muslim to denounce this heinous act!


So, in other words, despite the fact that Muslims are on the ground fighting ISIS, and exactly nobody from this nation is on the ground fighting ISIS, you choose to still believe that Muslims are not doing enough to show they don't support ISIS. And the fact that at this moment in time, probably 15,000-20,000 times more Muslims have been killed by ISIS than Americans doesn't show you that there has been a large amount of rejection in the Muslim community by ISIS.

OK then.

I guess for you, words speak louder than action.

 

[gman2304]

I've seen numbers estimating ISIS members numbering between 5,000 and 60,000, though the numbers seem to be growing. The Muslim population on planet earth is over 1 BILLION!! Are Muslims doing enough to stop ISIS??? REALLY....? Oh, NOBODY from this nation or any other nation should be on the ground fighting ISIS, AlQueda, or any other Muslim group.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: gman2304
Still waiting on on an American Muslim official to denounce the murder and attempted murder in OK Friday...2 days and counting.


Don't hold your breath. It would be an amazing thing to see.

Maybe if we can just get a few to speak up others would follow. I have Muslim clients that are horrified at this crazy stuff, but they aren't about to draw attention, either...


With good reason! They do not want to end up on the wrong end of a fatwah!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh

I'm pretty sure Timothy McVeigh meant to kill civilians. Ironically, he wiped out part of a child care center because he was upset about abortion...


I agree with that. However we do need to note that he wasn't part of a much larger system of people just as nuts as he was working on perpetrating these acts all over the rest of the world because those people were deemed inferior and subsequently needed to be exterminated.

 

[Azeem]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
I've seen numbers estimating ISIS members numbering between 5,000 and 60,000, though the numbers seem to be growing. The Muslim population on planet earth is over 1 BILLION!! Are Muslims doing enough to stop ISIS??? REALLY....? Oh, NOBODY from this nation or any other nation should be on the ground fighting ISIS, AlQueda, or any other Muslim group.


Did you read this?
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp

There clearly is resistance against these groups by Muslims, just based on the fact that a group like ISIS has to fight for territory at all. There have to be a whole lot of other Muslims picking up guns, tanks, planes, boms, etc, in order to hold these psychos at bay. The amount of Muslim refugees from these conflicts also shows there is no love between ISIS and a large contingent of the Muslim community.

The problem here is that Emirates bombing ISIS doesn't make a whole lot of headlines. The clear and tangible link that the amount of fighting going on against ISIS and the amount of Muslim bodies left behind means that for every non-Muslim getting killed, there must be at least 1,000 Muslims. They're executing Iraqi security forces, killing and raping Muslims in droves, and engaged in bitter fighting with other Muslims. The media wants to show and print stories about bloodthirsty Muslims, because that is what the biased people want to see. Stories about the good Muslims who think extremism is a total and complete nightmare do not make headlines, because that would make people feel less threatened, and then they wouldn't want to watch the news as much.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
I've seen numbers estimating ISIS members numbering between 5,000 and 60,000, though the numbers seem to be growing. The Muslim population on planet earth is over 1 BILLION!! Are Muslims doing enough to stop ISIS??? REALLY....? Oh, NOBODY from this nation or any other nation should be on the ground fighting ISIS, AlQueda, or any other Muslim group.


There is no Muslim Military to simply deploy anywhere nationwide and defeat something like this, and if there were such a thing, people like you would crowing about it every day.

 

[gman2304]

No Muslim military....OK. Many Muslim countries have military forces...but guess what....It isn't about a military force defeating another....it's about religious zealots trying to force they're religious beliefs on non believers, infidels....they're words, not mine. No military force can defeat that. It's radical/extremism. It's biblical, like stoning. Like the two women who were stoned to death a few months ago for allegedly committing adultery.

 

[Apollo14]

Here's an interesting list of religiously based conflict. I'm sure people will be able to draw conclusions to support both sides of the debate that is going on here.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm

I think if every passionate person (except the true extremists), be they on a forum or in a conflict zone, stood back and reviewed this list and historical incidents like them, they would see a pattern that divisions based on religion or tribe or sect or whatever grouping of beliefs, typically ends after a lot of death and destruction with people eventually realizing they should not have gone down that path.

Tolerance and letting go of the past is the only way forward.

 

[gman2304]

Apollo, I agree...and have said for years that more wars have been fought and more lives lost in the name of religion, than for any other reason. To the chagrin of friends and family members.