I have been reading about oil consumption issues with several new engines from various manufactures. In reviewing some of the comments, I came to realize that the problem seems to be a possible combination of low tension piston rings & 0w20 oil. I also suspect that some new engines with low tension rings& 0w20 oil may start to develope oil consumption issues as they get up in miles. I have never had an engine in my new vehicles that consumed more than 1/4 quart in a 6,000 mile oil change. This is kind of scary as I ready to trade my 07 CX7 turbo next year. My Turbo Mazda uses ~ 1/8 to 1/4 quart of oil in a 6k oil change.The need to add any oil during a manufactured oil change recommendation (7,500) is unacceptable to me.We may have gone over the edge with the quest for a few hundreds of a mile per gallon of fuel increase at the expense of oil consumption. Ed
New engines & oil consumption
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There are many factors that can cause oil consumption.
1. How the engine was broken-in.
2. Engine design.
3. Dirty piston rings.
4. Driving style.
5. Viscosity.
6. Type of rings.
7. Volatility.
...among others.
The two Japanese 4 cylinders I owned (Toyota 1.8L & Honda 2.4L), both consumed oil when brand new. I got rid of the Toyota with 180k miles on it and it ran like new. My Honda has 162k and runs like new. Both were broken-in gently.
The Dodge Ram and Mazda 3 were both broken-in hard, and neither consumed oil. That may or may not have anything to do with it.
There was a study from a few years ago done by Shell that showed lower viscosity oils (in this case 20 grade) having a greater oil film in the ring area than heavier oil.
1. How the engine was broken-in.
2. Engine design.
3. Dirty piston rings.
4. Driving style.
5. Viscosity.
6. Type of rings.
7. Volatility.
...among others.
The two Japanese 4 cylinders I owned (Toyota 1.8L & Honda 2.4L), both consumed oil when brand new. I got rid of the Toyota with 180k miles on it and it ran like new. My Honda has 162k and runs like new. Both were broken-in gently.
The Dodge Ram and Mazda 3 were both broken-in hard, and neither consumed oil. That may or may not have anything to do with it.
There was a study from a few years ago done by Shell that showed lower viscosity oils (in this case 20 grade) having a greater oil film in the ring area than heavier oil.
Quote:
I have never had an engine in my new vehicles that consumed more than 1/4 quart in a 6,000 mile oil change. This is kind of scary as I ready to trade my 07 CX7 turbo next year. My Turbo Mazda uses ~ 1/8 to 1/4 quart of oil in a 6k oil change.The need to add any oil during a manufactured oil change recommendation (7,500) is unacceptable to me.
I've heard varying opinions about oil consumption and whether it's really a "bad" thing or not. Quite frankly, most engines do consume oil and many of them will last a really long time.
Quote:
In reviewing some of the comments, I came to realize that the problem seems to be a possible combination of low tension piston rings & 0w20 oil.
It is possible that the ultra high VI 0w20's burn off faster under severe driving.
Engines are also more powerful and running hotter than ever all while trying to improve fuel economy by using low viscosity oils. Pretty challenging.
I have never had an engine in my new vehicles that consumed more than 1/4 quart in a 6,000 mile oil change. This is kind of scary as I ready to trade my 07 CX7 turbo next year. My Turbo Mazda uses ~ 1/8 to 1/4 quart of oil in a 6k oil change.The need to add any oil during a manufactured oil change recommendation (7,500) is unacceptable to me.
I've heard varying opinions about oil consumption and whether it's really a "bad" thing or not. Quite frankly, most engines do consume oil and many of them will last a really long time.
Quote:
In reviewing some of the comments, I came to realize that the problem seems to be a possible combination of low tension piston rings & 0w20 oil.
It is possible that the ultra high VI 0w20's burn off faster under severe driving.
Engines are also more powerful and running hotter than ever all while trying to improve fuel economy by using low viscosity oils. Pretty challenging.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I have been reading about oil consumption issues with several new engines from various manufactures. In reviewing some of the comments, I came to realize that the problem seems to be a possible combination of low tension piston rings & 0w20 oil. I also suspect that some new engines with low tension rings& 0w20 oil may start to develope oil consumption issues as they get up in miles. I have never had an engine in my new vehicles that consumed more than 1/4 quart in a 6,000 mile oil change. This is kind of scary as I ready to trade my 07 CX7 turbo next year. My Turbo Mazda uses ~ 1/8 to 1/4 quart of oil in a 6k oil change.The need to add any oil during a manufactured oil change recommendation (7,500) is unacceptable to me.We may have gone over the edge with the quest for a few hundreds of a mile per gallon of fuel increase at the expense of oil consumption. Ed
Personally, I think your definition of "acceptable" is totally unreasonable. All cars consume *some* oil, sometimes it's barely noticeable, sometimes not. Part of owning a car is checking the oil regularly and adding as necessary.
As far as oil weights and consumption, all of the engines I've owned which used A3-rated oil consumed a fair bit of oil. My 20W-spec'd Ford consumes very little. I'm at 130K right now and consumption is roughly .25-.5 qt over 7.5K. Turbos also seem to consume more oil, at least in my experience. I'm not sure if it's coincidence or if there's actually a reason.
I have been reading about oil consumption issues with several new engines from various manufactures. In reviewing some of the comments, I came to realize that the problem seems to be a possible combination of low tension piston rings & 0w20 oil. I also suspect that some new engines with low tension rings& 0w20 oil may start to develope oil consumption issues as they get up in miles. I have never had an engine in my new vehicles that consumed more than 1/4 quart in a 6,000 mile oil change. This is kind of scary as I ready to trade my 07 CX7 turbo next year. My Turbo Mazda uses ~ 1/8 to 1/4 quart of oil in a 6k oil change.The need to add any oil during a manufactured oil change recommendation (7,500) is unacceptable to me.We may have gone over the edge with the quest for a few hundreds of a mile per gallon of fuel increase at the expense of oil consumption. Ed
Personally, I think your definition of "acceptable" is totally unreasonable. All cars consume *some* oil, sometimes it's barely noticeable, sometimes not. Part of owning a car is checking the oil regularly and adding as necessary.
As far as oil weights and consumption, all of the engines I've owned which used A3-rated oil consumed a fair bit of oil. My 20W-spec'd Ford consumes very little. I'm at 130K right now and consumption is roughly .25-.5 qt over 7.5K. Turbos also seem to consume more oil, at least in my experience. I'm not sure if it's coincidence or if there's actually a reason.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I have been reading about oil consumption issues with several new engines from various manufactures. In reviewing some of the comments, I came to realize that the problem seems to be a possible combination of low tension piston rings & 0w20 oil. I also suspect that some new engines with low tension rings& 0w20 oil may start to develope oil consumption issues as they get up in miles.
It would be much more useful if you would name names and cite sources. I have 2011 and 2012 Japanese vehicles of different manufacture which both utilize V6's specing 0W-20. So, I am very interested in your topic. I've done quite a bit of research on my specific models and a few UOAs to gain insight. The good news is that one, the Honda VCM (which has had oil consumption issues prior to MY 2011) burns only 1/4 quart in a 6400 OCI. The Toyota burns nothing in 10,000 miles. So, you need to be very specific in order to be accurate and helpful.
I have been reading about oil consumption issues with several new engines from various manufactures. In reviewing some of the comments, I came to realize that the problem seems to be a possible combination of low tension piston rings & 0w20 oil. I also suspect that some new engines with low tension rings& 0w20 oil may start to develope oil consumption issues as they get up in miles.
It would be much more useful if you would name names and cite sources. I have 2011 and 2012 Japanese vehicles of different manufacture which both utilize V6's specing 0W-20. So, I am very interested in your topic. I've done quite a bit of research on my specific models and a few UOAs to gain insight. The good news is that one, the Honda VCM (which has had oil consumption issues prior to MY 2011) burns only 1/4 quart in a 6400 OCI. The Toyota burns nothing in 10,000 miles. So, you need to be very specific in order to be accurate and helpful.
Unless you put gapless rings in your engine your rings will have a gap that oil can pass through. Some consumption is normal
The stuff added to oil now doesn't do much good for converter life, although the synthetics are said to be better in that regard because they may need less added to them to produce the range needed. I understand VW policy is a quart per thousand is OK... do they buy you a new cat when it fails because of all the oil combustion products run through it? Get the zinc out, right, but then call normal a quart per thousand. I've got a Toyota with almost 200K on it which doesn't use a PINT in 6 thousand.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Unless you put gapless rings in your engine your rings will have a gap that oil can pass through. Some consumption is normal
X2. "Some" consumption is considered normal even by the engine manufacturers and the manual says up to a quart per 3,000 miles is normal.
My 2007 Honda Civic Si 2.0L burned a quart every 3k miles since new. I drove it hard each and very day.
My 2007 Honda Civic EX 1.8L burns a cup or so of oil per 6-10k OCIs and has done so since new. I can go the distance without adding any oil but I choose to keep the oil level topped off at all times.
My new to me 1990 Mazda RX-7 with 145,000 miles is supposed to burn massive amounts of oil by design, I haven't noticed any decrease in oil level... Yet.
Since the auto manufacturers consider SOME oil burn off as normal, we can't consider it unacceptable. We gotta accept it and live with it.
Unless you put gapless rings in your engine your rings will have a gap that oil can pass through. Some consumption is normal
X2. "Some" consumption is considered normal even by the engine manufacturers and the manual says up to a quart per 3,000 miles is normal.
My 2007 Honda Civic Si 2.0L burned a quart every 3k miles since new. I drove it hard each and very day.
My 2007 Honda Civic EX 1.8L burns a cup or so of oil per 6-10k OCIs and has done so since new. I can go the distance without adding any oil but I choose to keep the oil level topped off at all times.
My new to me 1990 Mazda RX-7 with 145,000 miles is supposed to burn massive amounts of oil by design, I haven't noticed any decrease in oil level... Yet.
Since the auto manufacturers consider SOME oil burn off as normal, we can't consider it unacceptable. We gotta accept it and live with it.
The original poster would hate my Ford. A qt in 800 miles is average for it when it was new. 25 yrs later its using about a gallon every 1k if I use 5w40
Originally Posted By: Chris142
The original poster would hate my Ford. A qt in 800 miles is average for it when it was new. 25 yrs later its using about a gallon every 1k if I use 5w40
a gallon every 1k, sure the tailpipe never rust
The original poster would hate my Ford. A qt in 800 miles is average for it when it was new. 25 yrs later its using about a gallon every 1k if I use 5w40
a gallon every 1k, sure the tailpipe never rust
Not automotive engines, but check this out...
My brother and I sell GE generators that are mostly powered by Briggs and Stratton Vanguard engines.
They self test for 20 minutes per week without load. During Hurricane Sandy, many of them ran for 8-10 days straight. The ones that had some load on them would go a week before shutting down on low oil pressure. The ones that had very little load would go three days. They use 5W30 synthetic. The loaded ones had a better ring seal and sucked less oil. As they age and wear in, they use less and less.
My brother and I sell GE generators that are mostly powered by Briggs and Stratton Vanguard engines.
They self test for 20 minutes per week without load. During Hurricane Sandy, many of them ran for 8-10 days straight. The ones that had some load on them would go a week before shutting down on low oil pressure. The ones that had very little load would go three days. They use 5W30 synthetic. The loaded ones had a better ring seal and sucked less oil. As they age and wear in, they use less and less.
The problem with oil consumption in new cars, 1qt is considered "normal" in 1000 miles. Fortunately, I never had one of those "normal" consumptions.
What did those Detroit Diesels do on a gallon of (engine) oil?
I'm curious where catalytic convertor life gets impinged. They are not cheapo items to lose. Plugs can be hard to change on the V6 motors, but it seems one has to have very high oil consumption these days in order to have issues, what with very hot running engines and spark energies used.
I'm curious where catalytic convertor life gets impinged. They are not cheapo items to lose. Plugs can be hard to change on the V6 motors, but it seems one has to have very high oil consumption these days in order to have issues, what with very hot running engines and spark energies used.
My parents had a 2008 Wrangler that was going through a quart per 700 miles.
Only had 80k miles. Oil consumption started around 45k and gradually got worse and worse.
There's a sooty / oily substance in the tailpipe. Do modern cats stop smoke from coming out?
Only had 80k miles. Oil consumption started around 45k and gradually got worse and worse.
There's a sooty / oily substance in the tailpipe. Do modern cats stop smoke from coming out?
Originally Posted By: Miller88
My parents had a 2008 Wrangler that was going through a quart per 700 miles.
Only had 80k miles. Oil consumption started around 45k and gradually got worse and worse.
There's a sooty / oily substance in the tailpipe. Do modern cats stop smoke from coming out?
Sounds like they had one of the 3.8s with the rings installed upside down. Cats don't stop smoke, no. They merely convert harmful gasses into slightly less harmful gasses. They aren't really filters for particulates.
My parents had a 2008 Wrangler that was going through a quart per 700 miles.
Only had 80k miles. Oil consumption started around 45k and gradually got worse and worse.
There's a sooty / oily substance in the tailpipe. Do modern cats stop smoke from coming out?
Sounds like they had one of the 3.8s with the rings installed upside down. Cats don't stop smoke, no. They merely convert harmful gasses into slightly less harmful gasses. They aren't really filters for particulates.
Originally Posted By: NYEngineer
Not automotive engines, but check this out...
My brother and I sell GE generators that are mostly powered by Briggs and Stratton Vanguard engines.
They self test for 20 minutes per week without load. During Hurricane Sandy, many of them ran for 8-10 days straight. The ones that had some load on them would go a week before shutting down on low oil pressure. The ones that had very little load would go three days. They use 5W30 synthetic. The loaded ones had a better ring seal and sucked less oil. As they age and wear in, they use less and less.
Are those gasoline of diesel? Are you saying the consumption is only during break-in.
Not automotive engines, but check this out...
My brother and I sell GE generators that are mostly powered by Briggs and Stratton Vanguard engines.
They self test for 20 minutes per week without load. During Hurricane Sandy, many of them ran for 8-10 days straight. The ones that had some load on them would go a week before shutting down on low oil pressure. The ones that had very little load would go three days. They use 5W30 synthetic. The loaded ones had a better ring seal and sucked less oil. As they age and wear in, they use less and less.
Are those gasoline of diesel? Are you saying the consumption is only during break-in.
I do not believe that any engine should consume a measurable amount of oil on it's OCI. I have had many engines use no oil in my 5K change cycle. Therefore that tells me that manufacturer's are more than capable of making an engine that does not use oil. That being said, since they are manufactured to the same tolerances, on the same line, they should perform the same. If your having to add a measurable amount (Measurable meaning a noticeable drop on the dipstick) between changes, something is wrong. this is 2012, not 1912. They've had over 100 years to get this right.
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
I do not believe that any engine should consume a measurable amount of oil on it's OCI. I have had many engines use no oil in my 5K change cycle. Therefore that tells me that manufacturer's are more than capable of making an engine that does not use oil. That being said, since they are manufactured to the same tolerances, on the same line, they should perform the same. If your having to add a measurable amount (Measurable meaning a noticeable drop on the dipstick) between changes, something is wrong. this is 2012, not 1912. They've had over 100 years to get this right.
That's the way I feel as well.
Unfortunately manufacturers heve these crazy levels of acceptable oil consumption, so if someone is stuck with a car like that they have no means to fix the problem.
I do not believe that any engine should consume a measurable amount of oil on it's OCI. I have had many engines use no oil in my 5K change cycle. Therefore that tells me that manufacturer's are more than capable of making an engine that does not use oil. That being said, since they are manufactured to the same tolerances, on the same line, they should perform the same. If your having to add a measurable amount (Measurable meaning a noticeable drop on the dipstick) between changes, something is wrong. this is 2012, not 1912. They've had over 100 years to get this right.
That's the way I feel as well.
Unfortunately manufacturers heve these crazy levels of acceptable oil consumption, so if someone is stuck with a car like that they have no means to fix the problem.
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
I do not believe that any engine should consume a measurable amount of oil on it's OCI. I have had many engines use no oil in my 5K change cycle. Therefore that tells me that manufacturer's are more than capable of making an engine that does not use oil. That being said, since they are manufactured to the same tolerances, on the same line, they should perform the same. If your having to add a measurable amount (Measurable meaning a noticeable drop on the dipstick) between changes, something is wrong. this is 2012, not 1912. They've had over 100 years to get this right.
For everyone who's had tons of engines that consumed no measurable oil between changes, there's someone who's never had an engine that didn't! I think what it comes down to is what you mean by "should". You're right that manufacturers seem to be able to build engines that don't consume measurable oil, so you can say "no engine should consume a measurable amount of oil" when speaking about ideals or the way we'd like things to be. But in practical terms, clearly some engines do and it's not much of a practical problem as long as it's kept topped up.
You can just as easily say "no car should get more than 1% less than EPA rated fuel mileage" or "no engine should test more than 1% different from rated power on a dyno". Sure, "should" in an ideal world. But this is not an ideal world and some variance is going to happen. The "1%" in my previous sentences is just as arbitrary as the "no measurable" standard from your post.
I do not believe that any engine should consume a measurable amount of oil on it's OCI. I have had many engines use no oil in my 5K change cycle. Therefore that tells me that manufacturer's are more than capable of making an engine that does not use oil. That being said, since they are manufactured to the same tolerances, on the same line, they should perform the same. If your having to add a measurable amount (Measurable meaning a noticeable drop on the dipstick) between changes, something is wrong. this is 2012, not 1912. They've had over 100 years to get this right.
For everyone who's had tons of engines that consumed no measurable oil between changes, there's someone who's never had an engine that didn't! I think what it comes down to is what you mean by "should". You're right that manufacturers seem to be able to build engines that don't consume measurable oil, so you can say "no engine should consume a measurable amount of oil" when speaking about ideals or the way we'd like things to be. But in practical terms, clearly some engines do and it's not much of a practical problem as long as it's kept topped up.
You can just as easily say "no car should get more than 1% less than EPA rated fuel mileage" or "no engine should test more than 1% different from rated power on a dyno". Sure, "should" in an ideal world. But this is not an ideal world and some variance is going to happen. The "1%" in my previous sentences is just as arbitrary as the "no measurable" standard from your post.
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