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Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #1994757
08/23/10 04:05 AM
08/23/10 04:05 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,576
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,576
Indianapolis, IN
First, I agree with the change to Delo. Not that I am blaming Amsoil or Schaeffers or any other expensive oil, but the key is to get as close as possible to "normal" in a UOA, and for Blackstone that is dino oil and 6.5k mile samples.

Next, it's OK to use the dino oil as a flush agent. Nothing says you have to do several OCIs with dino at 6k miles each. Although somewhat of a waste fiscally, you can run three consequtive dino oil OCIs at 2k miles each, to expediate the flush process. Then, after those short flushes, run a "normal" 6.5k mile OCI and sample. Part of the concept is to allow the engine to normalize to the chemisty of the host oil, but part of the concept is also to flush out the previous oils. You can accomplish both with short OCIs. AFTER that, then do a "normal" OCI and sample.

Further, and I'm not sure about this, so take this with a grain of salt, but are the bearings in the Dmax ceramic? I had heard this from another source, but I am unable to confirm. This would change our view of the turbo issue, perhaps? I'm the first to admit that I don't know much about the VGT turbo in the Dmax (and I even drive one!).


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: Jim Allen] #1998265
08/26/10 05:12 AM
08/26/10 05:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,338
Magnolia, TX
INDYMAC Offline
INDYMAC  Offline
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,338
Magnolia, TX
I'm wondering why Schaeffers is recommending adding #132 to their engine oils. Is there already not enough Moly in them? How does excess Moly affect Cu and other yellow metals in the engine?


2013 Toyota Tundra DC 4X4 5.7L FFV
2012 Toyota 4Runner 2WD SR5
2004 Honda S2000
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: dnewton3] #1998660
08/26/10 12:55 PM
08/26/10 12:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,339
SE, PA
deeter16317 Offline
deeter16317  Offline
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,339
SE, PA
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Further, and I'm not sure about this, so take this with a grain of salt, but are the bearings in the Dmax ceramic? I had heard this from another source, but I am unable to confirm. This would change our view of the turbo issue, perhaps? I'm the first to admit that I don't know much about the VGT turbo in the Dmax (and I even drive one!).



I was actually under the impression most manufacturers had moved over to ceramic turbo bearings...something I heard/read a while back.


2004.5 Dodge 2500 Cummins
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: INDYMAC] #1999301
08/26/10 10:54 PM
08/26/10 10:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,794
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,794
NY
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I'm wondering why Schaeffers is recommending adding #132 to their engine oils. Is there already not enough Moly in them? How does excess Moly affect Cu and other yellow metals in the engine?


#132 contains very little moly, check a VOA on it.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: demarpaint] #1999929
08/27/10 02:18 PM
08/27/10 02:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
I was actually reading on the dieselplace forums about excessive CU on Amsoil samples. Some as high as 1,000 PPM!!!! It could very well be something in the High $$$ oils that gives the results that we're seeing. I also read that if the bearing are going out, then the tin and aluminum would also be high. As far as the type of bearings that are in the turbo, I will call my Chevy garage tomorrow and find out. It will be interesting to see what results the Delo will return on a UOA.

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #2002029
08/29/10 05:17 PM
08/29/10 05:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
Is there a possibility that the #132 either has some copper in it or is causing some sort of reaction with the oil cooler? The viscosity has out of the 40 WT range on the high side. I was thinking that the 132 may've been the issue. But I guess the Delo UOA will tell the story whether or not the issue is lube or mechanical related. Any other ideas???

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #2003420
08/31/10 09:23 AM
08/31/10 09:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,339
SE, PA
deeter16317 Offline
deeter16317  Offline
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,339
SE, PA
If they have an oil cooler like a Cummins, copper is typically from the leaching of the copper cooler. This is well documented in Cummins engines, and there is even a report from Cat regarding copper from cooler leaching.


2004.5 Dodge 2500 Cummins
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: deeter16317] #2003557
08/31/10 12:23 PM
08/31/10 12:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
The Duramax engines are well-known for oil cooler leaching until a certain point when they are new. This engine is well past new though as it has 68,000 miles and over 2,800 hours. It could very well be just the oil cooler leaching out, but I will see what the Delo UOA says this OCI. If it reads proportionally similar, then the oil isn't the issue. (I don't believe it is at this point, but I am going through the process of elimination.) I use Schaeffers in everything else on the truck, except the Allison. (Transynd). I am a firm believer in the Schaeffers product, but I also know that every product doesn't work in every vehicle for whatever reason.

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #2006087
09/02/10 06:00 PM
09/02/10 06:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
Ok, the bearings in the turbo are ceramic. Blackstone seems to think that the oil cooler may have a crack developing based on both UOA's. Does anyone know if this would be likely? I haven't read anything about this being an issue anywhere.

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #2006186
09/02/10 08:15 PM
09/02/10 08:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,339
SE, PA
deeter16317 Offline
deeter16317  Offline
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,339
SE, PA
A crack would show signs of antifreeze??

I had a spike in copper when I changed oils...different oils affect the cooler differently.


2004.5 Dodge 2500 Cummins
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: deeter16317] #2006248
09/02/10 09:59 PM
09/02/10 09:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
Yeah, possibly. They tthink that the crack might just be starting to form and that antifreeze would be a tell-tale sign of that if the crack gets big enough. The last 2 UOA's were the 5th and 6th fills with the Schaeffers, so there really wasn't a change in oil until just recently. I don't know at this point. The Delo UOA will point me in the correct direction hopefully.

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #2094688
12/03/10 06:45 PM
12/03/10 06:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
Well I got my latest sample back from Blackstone today. This was the Delo 400 LE 15w/40: Miles on oil 5,624.

Aluminum 4
Chromium 0
Iron 8
Copper 15
Lead 1
Moly 1
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 2
Boron 427
Silicon 7
Sodium 2
Calcium 1503
Magnesium 491
Phosphorus 1088
Zinc 1391
Barium 0
SUS Viscosity @ 210F 77.7
cSt Vicosity @ 100C 14.95
Flashpoint 425F
Fuel % <0.5
Antifreeze % 0.0
Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.3
TBN 5.9

DNewton has proven points regarding high dollar synthetic vs. Dino oil in the Duramax engines. This most recent UOA is another to back up what he's already said. Looks as though after this batch of Schaeffer's gets to 3K I'll run another UOA. If the copper returns, Delo will be the choice for this engine, and at a significant less cost to boot. Feed back is welcome as to why the Delo produced drastically lower wear metals.

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #2094735
12/03/10 07:45 PM
12/03/10 07:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,360
Phoenix, AZ
panthermike Offline
panthermike  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,360
Phoenix, AZ
Could it have something to do with the PAO in Schaeffer's? I have no idea just throwing it out there.


'15 Lexus RX350; PP 0w20, 33K
'10 Impala; Frankenbrew, MG 114K
'70 F100; Valvoline 15w40/Biotech, Motorcraft

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #2094823
12/03/10 09:03 PM
12/03/10 09:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Jim Allen Offline
Jim Allen  Offline
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Very interesting developments. I'm staying tuned!


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #2095605
12/04/10 07:41 PM
12/04/10 07:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
It could possibly be due to something with the #132 that was added to the first 2 batches of Schaffer's. I guess that sometimes more money doesn't always equal better results.

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