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#1994757 - 08/23/10 05:05 AM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6982
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
First, I agree with the change to Delo. Not that I am blaming Amsoil or Schaeffers or any other expensive oil, but the key is to get as close as possible to "normal" in a UOA, and for Blackstone that is dino oil and 6.5k mile samples.

Next, it's OK to use the dino oil as a flush agent. Nothing says you have to do several OCIs with dino at 6k miles each. Although somewhat of a waste fiscally, you can run three consequtive dino oil OCIs at 2k miles each, to expediate the flush process. Then, after those short flushes, run a "normal" 6.5k mile OCI and sample. Part of the concept is to allow the engine to normalize to the chemisty of the host oil, but part of the concept is also to flush out the previous oils. You can accomplish both with short OCIs. AFTER that, then do a "normal" OCI and sample.

Further, and I'm not sure about this, so take this with a grain of salt, but are the bearings in the Dmax ceramic? I had heard this from another source, but I am unable to confirm. This would change our view of the turbo issue, perhaps? I'm the first to admit that I don't know much about the VGT turbo in the Dmax (and I even drive one!).
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#1998265 - 08/26/10 06:12 AM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: Jim Allen]
INDYMAC Offline


Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2338
Loc: Magnolia, TX
I'm wondering why Schaeffers is recommending adding #132 to their engine oils. Is there already not enough Moly in them? How does excess Moly affect Cu and other yellow metals in the engine?
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2012 Toyota 4Runner 2WD SR5
2004 Honda S2000

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#1998660 - 08/26/10 01:55 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: dnewton3]
deeter16317 Offline


Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 1339
Loc: SE, PA
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Further, and I'm not sure about this, so take this with a grain of salt, but are the bearings in the Dmax ceramic? I had heard this from another source, but I am unable to confirm. This would change our view of the turbo issue, perhaps? I'm the first to admit that I don't know much about the VGT turbo in the Dmax (and I even drive one!).



I was actually under the impression most manufacturers had moved over to ceramic turbo bearings...something I heard/read a while back.
_________________________
2004.5 Dodge 2500 Cummins

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#1999301 - 08/26/10 11:54 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: INDYMAC]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 28528
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I'm wondering why Schaeffers is recommending adding #132 to their engine oils. Is there already not enough Moly in them? How does excess Moly affect Cu and other yellow metals in the engine?


#132 contains very little moly, check a VOA on it.
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#1999929 - 08/27/10 03:18 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: demarpaint]
07GreyLBZ Offline


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Central, OH
I was actually reading on the dieselplace forums about excessive CU on Amsoil samples. Some as high as 1,000 PPM!!!! It could very well be something in the High $$$ oils that gives the results that we're seeing. I also read that if the bearing are going out, then the tin and aluminum would also be high. As far as the type of bearings that are in the turbo, I will call my Chevy garage tomorrow and find out. It will be interesting to see what results the Delo will return on a UOA.

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#2002029 - 08/29/10 06:17 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
07GreyLBZ Offline


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Central, OH
Is there a possibility that the #132 either has some copper in it or is causing some sort of reaction with the oil cooler? The viscosity has out of the 40 WT range on the high side. I was thinking that the 132 may've been the issue. But I guess the Delo UOA will tell the story whether or not the issue is lube or mechanical related. Any other ideas???

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#2003420 - 08/31/10 10:23 AM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
deeter16317 Offline


Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 1339
Loc: SE, PA
If they have an oil cooler like a Cummins, copper is typically from the leaching of the copper cooler. This is well documented in Cummins engines, and there is even a report from Cat regarding copper from cooler leaching.
_________________________
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#2003557 - 08/31/10 01:23 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: deeter16317]
07GreyLBZ Offline


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Central, OH
The Duramax engines are well-known for oil cooler leaching until a certain point when they are new. This engine is well past new though as it has 68,000 miles and over 2,800 hours. It could very well be just the oil cooler leaching out, but I will see what the Delo UOA says this OCI. If it reads proportionally similar, then the oil isn't the issue. (I don't believe it is at this point, but I am going through the process of elimination.) I use Schaeffers in everything else on the truck, except the Allison. (Transynd). I am a firm believer in the Schaeffers product, but I also know that every product doesn't work in every vehicle for whatever reason.

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#2006087 - 09/02/10 07:00 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
07GreyLBZ Offline


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Central, OH
Ok, the bearings in the turbo are ceramic. Blackstone seems to think that the oil cooler may have a crack developing based on both UOA's. Does anyone know if this would be likely? I haven't read anything about this being an issue anywhere.

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#2006186 - 09/02/10 09:15 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
deeter16317 Offline


Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 1339
Loc: SE, PA
A crack would show signs of antifreeze??

I had a spike in copper when I changed oils...different oils affect the cooler differently.
_________________________
2004.5 Dodge 2500 Cummins

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#2006248 - 09/02/10 10:59 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: deeter16317]
07GreyLBZ Offline


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Central, OH
Yeah, possibly. They tthink that the crack might just be starting to form and that antifreeze would be a tell-tale sign of that if the crack gets big enough. The last 2 UOA's were the 5th and 6th fills with the Schaeffers, so there really wasn't a change in oil until just recently. I don't know at this point. The Delo UOA will point me in the correct direction hopefully.

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#2094688 - 12/03/10 06:45 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
07GreyLBZ Offline


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Central, OH
Well I got my latest sample back from Blackstone today. This was the Delo 400 LE 15w/40: Miles on oil 5,624.

Aluminum 4
Chromium 0
Iron 8
Copper 15
Lead 1
Moly 1
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 2
Boron 427
Silicon 7
Sodium 2
Calcium 1503
Magnesium 491
Phosphorus 1088
Zinc 1391
Barium 0
SUS Viscosity @ 210F 77.7
cSt Vicosity @ 100C 14.95
Flashpoint 425F
Fuel % <0.5
Antifreeze % 0.0
Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.3
TBN 5.9

DNewton has proven points regarding high dollar synthetic vs. Dino oil in the Duramax engines. This most recent UOA is another to back up what he's already said. Looks as though after this batch of Schaeffer's gets to 3K I'll run another UOA. If the copper returns, Delo will be the choice for this engine, and at a significant less cost to boot. Feed back is welcome as to why the Delo produced drastically lower wear metals.

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#2094735 - 12/03/10 07:45 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
panthermike Offline


Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 3335
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Could it have something to do with the PAO in Schaeffer's? I have no idea just throwing it out there.
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'16 Ram Sport 1500; Havoline/Biotech, Wix 20K
'10 Impala; PHM/ Biotech, MG 109K
'70 F100; Valvoline 15w40/Biotech, Motorcraft


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#2094823 - 12/03/10 09:03 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4482
Loc: NW Ohio
Very interesting developments. I'm staying tuned!
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Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#2095605 - 12/04/10 07:41 PM Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ]
07GreyLBZ Offline


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Central, OH
It could possibly be due to something with the #132 that was added to the first 2 batches of Schaffer's. I guess that sometimes more money doesn't always equal better results.

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