PUREONE BETA RATES!
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Originally Posted By: SHAMUS
From 7777's opening thread: "Im thinking of switching filters"
Gary's reply #1572950, 08/20/09, 11:43am:
"that some alleged engineer pulled out of his behind via email"
Gary, I am too ignorant about oil and filters to say what is the best of anything. But I respect those who believe in what they believe in. I am neither a liar nor afraid to challenge anyone on anything. I wish my thread had not turned into something so personal. I will post what Purolator sends me when I get it. Take care, Gary, I do respect you.
Fair enough, SHAMUS ..fair enough. I was wondering where you got that from :lol: I kept looking where I had snide remarks about the engineer ..it just wasn't in this thread. I would say that the two aren't related ..but that's more of an etiquette issue. I wasn't bring that into this thread.
Keep in mind SHAMUS that we're on the internet here. If you had been here from the get go you would see that there's a shift from seeking and producing of reliable data to ..or more toward, "assertive opinion promotion". That is, the validity of what you say gets drowned out by the way you argue it ..the amount of support you can draw to the opinion. This occurs more and more here everyday.
As you can see, with one data point, admittedly from a bona fide source, when challenged, got gang tackled. Some want it to be true. Some what it "not to be untrue". Some "imagined" me challenging the figures to promote EaO filters. I just find it hard to believe in light of my experience and gleaned knowledge.
How many supporters of this revelation pondered any of the points that I offered? How many went to the sights that I suggested and said to themselves "Hmmm..he's right, this is a departure from the rest of the industry/sector/market"?
The point I hope that everyone came out of this with is that you have to challenge most of what you hear that puts one product out there above the rest by a distinct margin. There's really nothing new under the sun.
My favorite "rally round the flagpole opinion-fest" was the M1 FE thread. If you look at my comments, I just poked my head in and chuckled. When you see "Valvoline has 8X less wear than M1!!" ..or "90% of all wear occurs at start up", you're surely seeing plays on words. You can always figure that for the vast majority of us ..the distinctions are in the minor background noise level.
If this gets validated, I'll be pleased that this revolution has come to the average consumer at the price point that it's currently available. It may not work for all users, but for a good chunk of humanity out there probably can.
My posting style can surely appear wise-guy. It's my literary style and while it can (apparently, anyway) irritate, it's mainly meant to bring Captain Obvious to the bully pulpit in a manner that he can't be ignored. If you can legitimately shoot him off of the soap box, you've proved your point. He doesn't fall down easily.
From 7777's opening thread: "Im thinking of switching filters"
Gary's reply #1572950, 08/20/09, 11:43am:
"that some alleged engineer pulled out of his behind via email"
Gary, I am too ignorant about oil and filters to say what is the best of anything. But I respect those who believe in what they believe in. I am neither a liar nor afraid to challenge anyone on anything. I wish my thread had not turned into something so personal. I will post what Purolator sends me when I get it. Take care, Gary, I do respect you.
Fair enough, SHAMUS ..fair enough. I was wondering where you got that from :lol: I kept looking where I had snide remarks about the engineer ..it just wasn't in this thread. I would say that the two aren't related ..but that's more of an etiquette issue. I wasn't bring that into this thread.
Keep in mind SHAMUS that we're on the internet here. If you had been here from the get go you would see that there's a shift from seeking and producing of reliable data to ..or more toward, "assertive opinion promotion". That is, the validity of what you say gets drowned out by the way you argue it ..the amount of support you can draw to the opinion. This occurs more and more here everyday.
As you can see, with one data point, admittedly from a bona fide source, when challenged, got gang tackled. Some want it to be true. Some what it "not to be untrue". Some "imagined" me challenging the figures to promote EaO filters. I just find it hard to believe in light of my experience and gleaned knowledge.
How many supporters of this revelation pondered any of the points that I offered? How many went to the sights that I suggested and said to themselves "Hmmm..he's right, this is a departure from the rest of the industry/sector/market"?
The point I hope that everyone came out of this with is that you have to challenge most of what you hear that puts one product out there above the rest by a distinct margin. There's really nothing new under the sun.
My favorite "rally round the flagpole opinion-fest" was the M1 FE thread. If you look at my comments, I just poked my head in and chuckled. When you see "Valvoline has 8X less wear than M1!!" ..or "90% of all wear occurs at start up", you're surely seeing plays on words. You can always figure that for the vast majority of us ..the distinctions are in the minor background noise level.
If this gets validated, I'll be pleased that this revolution has come to the average consumer at the price point that it's currently available. It may not work for all users, but for a good chunk of humanity out there probably can.
My posting style can surely appear wise-guy. It's my literary style and while it can (apparently, anyway) irritate, it's mainly meant to bring Captain Obvious to the bully pulpit in a manner that he can't be ignored. If you can legitimately shoot him off of the soap box, you've proved your point. He doesn't fall down easily.
My friend, ain't no biggie 'tal. We really got off point. I just spoke with Katrina (Purolator) this morning, and she once again rattled the engineer's cage to clarify. More waiting.
Hope everything is good with the family?
Hope everything is good with the family?
Well, if you can't trust the data direct from the Purolator Engineering department, then I don't know who you'd trust. I doubt there are any independant labs that have the Beta Ratio data for all the major filters on the market.
It very well could be that the PureONE is actually better than advertised, so Purolator can never be challenged that they have misadvertised.
It very well could be that the PureONE is actually better than advertised, so Purolator can never be challenged that they have misadvertised.
Originally Posted By: SHAMUS
My friend, ain't no biggie 'tal. We really got off point. I just spoke with Katrina (Purolator) this morning, and she once again rattled the engineer's cage to clarify. More waiting.
If the original data from Purolator was correct, there is nothing to "clarify". It is what it is.
My friend, ain't no biggie 'tal. We really got off point. I just spoke with Katrina (Purolator) this morning, and she once again rattled the engineer's cage to clarify. More waiting.
If the original data from Purolator was correct, there is nothing to "clarify". It is what it is.
To be sure. But there was enough doubts cast that even I began to wonder. When they do reply, I am sure they will reinterate what has already been said. Purolator PureONE is the best oil filter out there! You have given them visual proof that their flow rate is one of the least restrictive. Katrina gave us their outstanding filtering efficencies; and their engineer gave us beta ratios to more than back those up.
Look at the flow rate graph, anybody else notice anything?
Since a lot of relief bypass valves are set to relieve around 8-10 PSI differential, than these filters are only flowing around 2-3 gpm through the media. The oil pump is capable of flowing much more than that, so does this mean filters are in bypass most of the time? Or does "the engine" not flow that much so most of the flow goes out the pump relief?
Since a lot of relief bypass valves are set to relieve around 8-10 PSI differential, than these filters are only flowing around 2-3 gpm through the media. The oil pump is capable of flowing much more than that, so does this mean filters are in bypass most of the time? Or does "the engine" not flow that much so most of the flow goes out the pump relief?
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No. That's a static chart that will always read supply pressure across the single resistive element. It's like one single lightbulb in a DC circuit. Put a MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE CHOKE downstream of it ..and the typical oil pump relief will be dumping flow like it was trying to bail the Titanic. That is, the slope across the engine will be many magnitudes HIGHER.
The chart is misleading for any sensible data other than comparative. It's pretty moot if you can't pass 2gpm @ that temp though any engine. Make it 5 gpm if someone wants to make it an arguing point.
The chart is misleading for any sensible data other than comparative. It's pretty moot if you can't pass 2gpm @ that temp though any engine. Make it 5 gpm if someone wants to make it an arguing point.
With the "Much more resistive choke" being the engine itself, how many gpms of oil do you suppose actually flows "through" the engine at say 2000 rpm.
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Let's put the chart in perspective.
A typical Wix will not go above 11psid
A typical Purolator will not go above 15PSID
The rest of the PSID will be across whatever engine is downstream of them. Most of that PSID is due to the flow that the engine is not seeing. As the flow increases, the engine will get more PSID ..the filter less ..as the engine approaches the supply pressure in decreasing attenuated flow and increased realized flow.
A typical Wix will not go above 11psid
A typical Purolator will not go above 15PSID
The rest of the PSID will be across whatever engine is downstream of them. Most of that PSID is due to the flow that the engine is not seeing. As the flow increases, the engine will get more PSID ..the filter less ..as the engine approaches the supply pressure in decreasing attenuated flow and increased realized flow.
Originally Posted By: another Todd
Look at the flow rate graph, anybody else notice anything?
That "Flow vs. PSID" graph was probably generated from flow data of the media only. Yes, if you tried to put that much flow of cold oil through those filters they would certainly be in bypass mode as the graph shows PSID way above the normal bypass valve psi setting.
The graph was meant to give a relative comparison of the flow vs PSID performance of those filters. As I sais earlier, this graph was published by ACDelco, as you can see their "Ultragaurd" filter was the best comparative flowing filter in the graph.
Originally Posted By: another Todd
Since a lot of relief bypass valves are set to relieve around 8-10 PSI differential, than these filters are only flowing around 2-3 gpm through the media. The oil pump is capable of flowing much more than that, so does this mean filters are in bypass most of the time? Or does "the engine" not flow that much so most of the flow goes out the pump relief?
In a cold oil condition, like that graph is representing, the max oil flow rate that would be going through the filter would be whatever the max oil pressure level (controlled by the pump’s pressure relief valve) would cause. In other words, there might only be a few GPM max going through the filter in a real life situation.
The bottom line is the filter/engine flow circuit will only flow the amount of oil that X psi can physically push through it. If the oil is very viscous, then X psi will push much less GPM through the fixed flow resistance (filter + engine; in series flow) than X psi would push very thin oil through.
Look at the flow rate graph, anybody else notice anything?
That "Flow vs. PSID" graph was probably generated from flow data of the media only. Yes, if you tried to put that much flow of cold oil through those filters they would certainly be in bypass mode as the graph shows PSID way above the normal bypass valve psi setting.
The graph was meant to give a relative comparison of the flow vs PSID performance of those filters. As I sais earlier, this graph was published by ACDelco, as you can see their "Ultragaurd" filter was the best comparative flowing filter in the graph.
Originally Posted By: another Todd
Since a lot of relief bypass valves are set to relieve around 8-10 PSI differential, than these filters are only flowing around 2-3 gpm through the media. The oil pump is capable of flowing much more than that, so does this mean filters are in bypass most of the time? Or does "the engine" not flow that much so most of the flow goes out the pump relief?
In a cold oil condition, like that graph is representing, the max oil flow rate that would be going through the filter would be whatever the max oil pressure level (controlled by the pump’s pressure relief valve) would cause. In other words, there might only be a few GPM max going through the filter in a real life situation.
The bottom line is the filter/engine flow circuit will only flow the amount of oil that X psi can physically push through it. If the oil is very viscous, then X psi will push much less GPM through the fixed flow resistance (filter + engine; in series flow) than X psi would push very thin oil through.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The rest of the PSID will be across whatever engine is downstream of them. Most of that PSID is due to the flow that the engine is not seeing. As the flow increases, the engine will get more PSID ..the filter less ..as the engine approaches the supply pressure in decreasing attenuated flow and increased realized flow.
The statement in red above is not correct as literally stated - it's physically impossible for the filter to see less PSID if the engine sees more PSID while increasing the flow. There is always a fixed relative PSID ratio between the filter and engine ... if there is high engine PSID then there is also a corresponding relative high filter PSID. Fluid's physics dictate this fact.
Why you say? Because all oil flow that goes through the filter media also goes through the engine if the filter is not in bypass mode. It's a series flow path. The oil flow that leaves the oil pump that travels down the gallery to the filter is also the oil flow that leaves the filter and passes through the engine's flow gallery.
The rest of the PSID will be across whatever engine is downstream of them. Most of that PSID is due to the flow that the engine is not seeing. As the flow increases, the engine will get more PSID ..the filter less ..as the engine approaches the supply pressure in decreasing attenuated flow and increased realized flow.
The statement in red above is not correct as literally stated - it's physically impossible for the filter to see less PSID if the engine sees more PSID while increasing the flow. There is always a fixed relative PSID ratio between the filter and engine ... if there is high engine PSID then there is also a corresponding relative high filter PSID. Fluid's physics dictate this fact.
Why you say? Because all oil flow that goes through the filter media also goes through the engine if the filter is not in bypass mode. It's a series flow path. The oil flow that leaves the oil pump that travels down the gallery to the filter is also the oil flow that leaves the filter and passes through the engine's flow gallery.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Let's put the chart in perspective.
A typical Wix will not go above 11psid
A typical Purolator will not go above 15PSID
The rest of the PSID will be across whatever engine is downstream of them. Most of that PSID is due to the flow that the engine is not seeing. As the flow increases, the engine will get more PSID ..the filter less ..as the engine approaches the supply pressure in decreasing attenuated flow and increased realized flow.
My wix spec sheet states ..By-pass valve setting-psi..8-11
Purolator pureone relief valve settings psi........14-18
Is it correct to assume that the higher psi filter filters more oil because it withstands more oil pressure before bypass valve opens up.
Let's put the chart in perspective.
A typical Wix will not go above 11psid
A typical Purolator will not go above 15PSID
The rest of the PSID will be across whatever engine is downstream of them. Most of that PSID is due to the flow that the engine is not seeing. As the flow increases, the engine will get more PSID ..the filter less ..as the engine approaches the supply pressure in decreasing attenuated flow and increased realized flow.
My wix spec sheet states ..By-pass valve setting-psi..8-11
Purolator pureone relief valve settings psi........14-18
Is it correct to assume that the higher psi filter filters more oil because it withstands more oil pressure before bypass valve opens up.
Originally Posted By: 7777
My wix spec sheet states ..By-pass valve setting-psi..8-11
Purolator pureone relief valve settings psi........14-18
Is it correct to assume that the higher psi filter filters more oil because it withstands more oil pressure before bypass valve opens up.
A higher bypass setting means it takes more pressure delta across the media (ie, PSID, "psi differential") to make the bypass valve start to open.
There could be a few factors associated with the setting of a bypass valve: 1)How restrictive to flow the media is, 2) How much debris loading the designer has allowed for (ie, filters with longer OCI might have a higher bypass setting), 3) Max oil volume the filter is designed to handle (ie, specified for cars with pretty high volume oil pumps).
I know the PureONE flows just as good as a WIX or NAPA Gold from use data on a Vette (ie, the max oil pressure seen was 70 psi at 5000+ RPM under the same conditions for both filters - pump in pressure relief mode). Therefore, I'd say the PureONE has the higher bypass setting because it's a very efficient filter and will load faster, and is (per input from other members here) specified by Purolator to be a 15K OCI filter.
So yes, if your engine does not produce much debris/sludge, and you change the filter way below 15K miles, then the chances of the PureONE going into bypass mode will be less than the WIX or NAPA Gold that have a lower bypass setting.
My wix spec sheet states ..By-pass valve setting-psi..8-11
Purolator pureone relief valve settings psi........14-18
Is it correct to assume that the higher psi filter filters more oil because it withstands more oil pressure before bypass valve opens up.
A higher bypass setting means it takes more pressure delta across the media (ie, PSID, "psi differential") to make the bypass valve start to open.
There could be a few factors associated with the setting of a bypass valve: 1)How restrictive to flow the media is, 2) How much debris loading the designer has allowed for (ie, filters with longer OCI might have a higher bypass setting), 3) Max oil volume the filter is designed to handle (ie, specified for cars with pretty high volume oil pumps).
I know the PureONE flows just as good as a WIX or NAPA Gold from use data on a Vette (ie, the max oil pressure seen was 70 psi at 5000+ RPM under the same conditions for both filters - pump in pressure relief mode). Therefore, I'd say the PureONE has the higher bypass setting because it's a very efficient filter and will load faster, and is (per input from other members here) specified by Purolator to be a 15K OCI filter.
So yes, if your engine does not produce much debris/sludge, and you change the filter way below 15K miles, then the chances of the PureONE going into bypass mode will be less than the WIX or NAPA Gold that have a lower bypass setting.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
7777 said:So yes, if your engine does not produce much debris/sludge, and you change the filter way below 15K miles, then the chances of the PureONE going into bypass mode will be less than the WIX or NAPA Gold that have a lower bypass setting.
Thanks B.
Also, with higher rpm theres more pressure and the filter goes in bypass mode right ?
Seems wix\napa gold are the only manufacturer with that low psi,all others are higher,hmmm
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Quote:
The statement in red above is not correct as literally stated - it's physically impossible for the filter to see less PSID if the engine sees more PSID while increasing the flow.
I'll entertain Soupy one more time for the oddity that he can't explain without yanking the ball over to his court of confusion.
85 relief limit: 16 bypass setting - max engine psi will be 69
As the flow through the engine increases (you're JUST SITTING THERE)
..BEFORE that relief valve closes ..the flow to the engine MUST increase. Since you still have the EXACT same 85lb output pressure at the pump ...and you have increased flow through BOTH the filter and the engine, the engine psi MUST increase. Guess were the reduced PSID is seen.
You guess it ..the filter.
QED.
Now prepare for the all spin zone.
The statement in red above is not correct as literally stated - it's physically impossible for the filter to see less PSID if the engine sees more PSID while increasing the flow.
I'll entertain Soupy one more time for the oddity that he can't explain without yanking the ball over to his court of confusion.
85 relief limit: 16 bypass setting - max engine psi will be 69
As the flow through the engine increases (you're JUST SITTING THERE)
..BEFORE that relief valve closes ..the flow to the engine MUST increase. Since you still have the EXACT same 85lb output pressure at the pump ...and you have increased flow through BOTH the filter and the engine, the engine psi MUST increase. Guess were the reduced PSID is seen.
You guess it ..the filter.
QED.
Now prepare for the all spin zone.
Originally Posted By: 7777
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
So yes, if your engine does not produce much debris/sludge, and you change the filter way below 15K miles, then the chances of the PureONE going into bypass mode will be less than the WIX or NAPA Gold that have a lower bypass setting.
Thanks B.
Also, with higher rpm theres more pressure and the filter goes in bypass mode right ?
It all depends on how much PSID is developed at the higher oil flow that is caused by the higher oil pressure. It's the oil pressure that "pushes" the oil volume through the flow path. As mentioned before, the engine is the main flow restriction, so if the engine flows a good amount of oil at high RPM, then there will also be that same high oil flow going through the filter.
Remember that the oil pump's pressure is limited by the oil pump's pressure relief valve, so you get max oil flow to the filter & engine when the pump is in relief mode.
Originally Posted By: 7777
Seems wix\napa gold are the only manufacturer with that low psi,all others are higher,hmmm
Probably because they don't filter quite as good as the PureONE. Plus, the WIX/NAPA Gold could be rated for a 5K or 7.5K OCI (not sure). Also realize that the media design must also be able to withstand a PSID before a higher set bypass valve opens up.
Guys with small block Chevys have the filter bypass built into the block, and I believe it's set to around 8~11 psi like the WIX filters. So these guys are stuck with a 8~11 psi bypass valve regardless of what filter they use. IMO, it's important to use a know free flowing filter on a small block Chevy.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
So yes, if your engine does not produce much debris/sludge, and you change the filter way below 15K miles, then the chances of the PureONE going into bypass mode will be less than the WIX or NAPA Gold that have a lower bypass setting.
Thanks B.
Also, with higher rpm theres more pressure and the filter goes in bypass mode right ?
It all depends on how much PSID is developed at the higher oil flow that is caused by the higher oil pressure. It's the oil pressure that "pushes" the oil volume through the flow path. As mentioned before, the engine is the main flow restriction, so if the engine flows a good amount of oil at high RPM, then there will also be that same high oil flow going through the filter.
Remember that the oil pump's pressure is limited by the oil pump's pressure relief valve, so you get max oil flow to the filter & engine when the pump is in relief mode.
Originally Posted By: 7777
Seems wix\napa gold are the only manufacturer with that low psi,all others are higher,hmmm
Probably because they don't filter quite as good as the PureONE. Plus, the WIX/NAPA Gold could be rated for a 5K or 7.5K OCI (not sure). Also realize that the media design must also be able to withstand a PSID before a higher set bypass valve opens up.
Guys with small block Chevys have the filter bypass built into the block, and I believe it's set to around 8~11 psi like the WIX filters. So these guys are stuck with a 8~11 psi bypass valve regardless of what filter they use. IMO, it's important to use a know free flowing filter on a small block Chevy.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
The statement in red above is not correct as literally stated - it's physically impossible for the filter to see less PSID if the engine sees more PSID while increasing the flow.
I'll entertain Soupy one more time for the oddity that he can't explain without yanking the ball over to his court of confusion.
... Gary , it's really not confusing to many here. Don't know why you can't see it.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
85 relief limit: 16 bypass setting - max engine psi will be 69.
Note - The filter's bypass valve setting (16 in your example above) has no bearing on what the PSID across the filter media may be. You could be at the 85 psi pump supply pressure (ie, pump's pressure relief setting), and only have a 5 PSID across the filter, which would then leave you 80 psi engine oil pressure.
But yes, I agree …IF the filter with a 16 psi bypass valve was in bypass mode, then the engine supply pressure would have to be 69 psi.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
As the flow through the engine increases (you're JUST SITTING THERE)..BEFORE that relief valve closes ..the flow to the engine MUST increase.
"As the flow through the engine increases" … ??? If you are at a constant 85 psi oil pump relief pressure, the only way to get increased flow rate through the engine (and filter) is to decrease the oil viscosity, which means the oil would have to be warming up and getting thinner.
If the filter's bypass valve is open at 16 psi, the engine is still getting the same flow rate that is coming out of the pump outlet at 85 psi, and going through the filter. What goes through the filter assy MUST go through the engine. The only difference when the filter is in bypass mode is that some of the oil going through the filter is bypassing the filter media.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Since you still have the EXACT same 85lb output pressure at the pump ...and you have increased flow through BOTH the filter and the engine, the engine psi MUST increase. Guess were the reduced PSID is seen.
You guess it ..the filter.
This makes no sense, unless there is missing info you haven’t clarified. This is where we keep derailing. Based on the way oil flows through a filter and then through the engine; there is no way you can increase the engine’s oil pressure while at the same time decreasing the filter’s PSID. The only way to do that would be to magically decrease the flow resistance of the filter, which just doesn’t happen.
While the oil pump is in pressure relief, and as the oil warms up and gets thinner, the oil pump just keeps pumping more and more oil volume down the filter/engine circuit as long as the pump can physically supply the needed volume. Once the oil gets too thin to keep this scenario up, then the oil pump will go out of pressure relief, and as the oil keeps getting warmer and thinner, the engine’s oil pressure and also the filter’s PSID will start to cut back.
The facts about an oiling system are:
1) Pump Output Pressure = Filter PSID + Engine Oil Pressure.
2) The flow resistance of a filter (assuming no loading) and an engine basically remains constant.
3) The PISD across a filter or engine is dependent on: a) Oil viscosity, b) Flow Rate, c) Flow vs PSID characteristic of the filter or engine.
4) The relative pressure drop ratio between the filter and engine remains constant throughout the flow regime (ie, if the filter produces 5% of the total pressure drop between pump outlet and sump, then this ratio occurs at any flow rate/oil viscosity combination).
Number 1) above has to remain true at all times … regardless if the filter is in bypass mode or not, OR if the pump is in pressure relief mode or not.
An example of number 4) above would be this. Pump supply pressure @ 100 psi, filter PSID @ 5 psi and engine supply pressure @ 95 psi. The filter is 5% drop and the engine 95% drop of the 100 psi supply pressure. If the supply pressure was 50 psi, then it would be filter PSID @ 2.5 psi and engine supply pressure @ 47.5 psi. At idle with hot oil, the supply pressure might be 25 psi ... therefore, filter PSID @ 1.25 psi, and engine oil pressure @ 23.75 psi. Do the same ratios with any supply pressure.
Quote:
The statement in red above is not correct as literally stated - it's physically impossible for the filter to see less PSID if the engine sees more PSID while increasing the flow.
I'll entertain Soupy one more time for the oddity that he can't explain without yanking the ball over to his court of confusion.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
85 relief limit: 16 bypass setting - max engine psi will be 69.
Note - The filter's bypass valve setting (16 in your example above) has no bearing on what the PSID across the filter media may be. You could be at the 85 psi pump supply pressure (ie, pump's pressure relief setting), and only have a 5 PSID across the filter, which would then leave you 80 psi engine oil pressure.
But yes, I agree …IF the filter with a 16 psi bypass valve was in bypass mode, then the engine supply pressure would have to be 69 psi.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
As the flow through the engine increases (you're JUST SITTING THERE)..BEFORE that relief valve closes ..the flow to the engine MUST increase.
"As the flow through the engine increases" … ??? If you are at a constant 85 psi oil pump relief pressure, the only way to get increased flow rate through the engine (and filter) is to decrease the oil viscosity, which means the oil would have to be warming up and getting thinner.
If the filter's bypass valve is open at 16 psi, the engine is still getting the same flow rate that is coming out of the pump outlet at 85 psi, and going through the filter. What goes through the filter assy MUST go through the engine. The only difference when the filter is in bypass mode is that some of the oil going through the filter is bypassing the filter media.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Since you still have the EXACT same 85lb output pressure at the pump ...and you have increased flow through BOTH the filter and the engine, the engine psi MUST increase. Guess were the reduced PSID is seen.
You guess it ..the filter.
This makes no sense, unless there is missing info you haven’t clarified. This is where we keep derailing. Based on the way oil flows through a filter and then through the engine; there is no way you can increase the engine’s oil pressure while at the same time decreasing the filter’s PSID. The only way to do that would be to magically decrease the flow resistance of the filter, which just doesn’t happen.
While the oil pump is in pressure relief, and as the oil warms up and gets thinner, the oil pump just keeps pumping more and more oil volume down the filter/engine circuit as long as the pump can physically supply the needed volume. Once the oil gets too thin to keep this scenario up, then the oil pump will go out of pressure relief, and as the oil keeps getting warmer and thinner, the engine’s oil pressure and also the filter’s PSID will start to cut back.
The facts about an oiling system are:
1) Pump Output Pressure = Filter PSID + Engine Oil Pressure.
2) The flow resistance of a filter (assuming no loading) and an engine basically remains constant.
3) The PISD across a filter or engine is dependent on: a) Oil viscosity, b) Flow Rate, c) Flow vs PSID characteristic of the filter or engine.
4) The relative pressure drop ratio between the filter and engine remains constant throughout the flow regime (ie, if the filter produces 5% of the total pressure drop between pump outlet and sump, then this ratio occurs at any flow rate/oil viscosity combination).
Number 1) above has to remain true at all times … regardless if the filter is in bypass mode or not, OR if the pump is in pressure relief mode or not.
An example of number 4) above would be this. Pump supply pressure @ 100 psi, filter PSID @ 5 psi and engine supply pressure @ 95 psi. The filter is 5% drop and the engine 95% drop of the 100 psi supply pressure. If the supply pressure was 50 psi, then it would be filter PSID @ 2.5 psi and engine supply pressure @ 47.5 psi. At idle with hot oil, the supply pressure might be 25 psi ... therefore, filter PSID @ 1.25 psi, and engine oil pressure @ 23.75 psi. Do the same ratios with any supply pressure.
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Shorten it up next time.. Too much tap dancing on needless data to pull the ball into your court. Let keep it to the specific situation in question. You can do it. I know you're smart enough.
Quote:
"As the flow through the engine increases" … ??? If you are at a constant 85 psi oil pump relief pressure, the only way to get increased flow rate through the engine (and filter) is to decrease the oil viscosity, which means the oil would have to be warming up and getting thinner.
Sure ..and according to your heralded Baloney ..both the engine AND the filter should drop less pressure ..but they can't ..since the supply is still 85. Now since the sum of the elements MUST add up to the supply.....
What occurs according the the revolution man???
Keep is short. You tend to make this "bypass" and go forward into a dissertation that goes "out of bounds".
Under your rhetoric(a presumption on my part) ..both the engine and the filter should retreat in parallel ..but we still have that nagging 85lb inconveniently hanging out there ...
Those two elements must add up to it ..and as the flow increases ...are you suggesting that they both stay @ 16 and @69 until the relief closes? That the filter will always be @ about 4.5X:1 ratio with the engine?
Quote:
"As the flow through the engine increases" … ??? If you are at a constant 85 psi oil pump relief pressure, the only way to get increased flow rate through the engine (and filter) is to decrease the oil viscosity, which means the oil would have to be warming up and getting thinner.
Sure ..and according to your heralded Baloney ..both the engine AND the filter should drop less pressure ..but they can't ..since the supply is still 85. Now since the sum of the elements MUST add up to the supply.....
What occurs according the the revolution man???
Keep is short. You tend to make this "bypass" and go forward into a dissertation that goes "out of bounds".
Under your rhetoric(a presumption on my part) ..both the engine and the filter should retreat in parallel ..but we still have that nagging 85lb inconveniently hanging out there ...
Those two elements must add up to it ..and as the flow increases ...are you suggesting that they both stay @ 16 and @69 until the relief closes? That the filter will always be @ about 4.5X:1 ratio with the engine?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
"As the flow through the engine increases" … ??? If you are at a constant 85 psi oil pump relief pressure, the only way to get increased flow rate through the engine (and filter) is to decrease the oil viscosity, which means the oil would have to be warming up and getting thinner.
Sure ..and according to your heralded Baloney ..both the engine AND the filter should drop less pressure ..but they can't ..since the supply is still 85. Now since the sum of the elements MUST add up to the supply.....
Yes, that's true IF the supply pressure is kept at 85 psi ... I never debated otherwise.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What occurs according the the revolution man???
Keep is short. You tend to make this "bypass" and go forward into a dissertation that goes "out of bounds".
Under your rhetoric(a presumption on my part) ..both the engine and the filter should retreat in parallel ..but we still have that nagging 85lb inconveniently hanging out there ...
Yes, the engine and filter PSID must both retread in parallel since there are both fixed "flow resistors". Just like if you decreased the voltage (ie, supply pressure) on two fixed resistors in series; the voltage drop across each resistor would decrease in parallel as the current (ie, flow volume) also decreased due to less supply pressure.
If the oil pump is always at it's relief pressure of 85 psi, then there will always be the same pressure drop across the filter and engine in the same ratio. Keep in mind that in order to maintain the 85 psi supply pressure with pump in relief, the pump would have to produce more volume to the filter/engine as the oil warmed up and became thinner. That just means less is diverted to the sump at the oil warms up during pressure relief mode.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Those two elements must add up to it ..and as the flow increases ...are you suggesting that they both stay @ 16 and @69 until the relief closes? That the filter will always be @ about 4.5X:1 ratio with the engine?
Yes, that's how I see it in an ideal situation - I gave PSID ratio examples above. In your case, I'd describe it as the filter always being ~19% of the total pressure drop (16 psi/85 psi). I believe most filters would have much less than 16 PSID on an engine with a supply pressure of 85 psi ... however I know this is just an "example.
If the oil pump's pressure relief was ideal and could actually control its output pressure to 85 psi under all RPM and viscosity conditions, then the PSID split ratio of the system should remain basically constant.
So what this also means is that if the filter's PSID due to oil flow is always less than it's bypass setting when the pump is in relief mode, then the filter would ideally never go into bypass mode.
Quote:
"As the flow through the engine increases" … ??? If you are at a constant 85 psi oil pump relief pressure, the only way to get increased flow rate through the engine (and filter) is to decrease the oil viscosity, which means the oil would have to be warming up and getting thinner.
Sure ..and according to your heralded Baloney ..both the engine AND the filter should drop less pressure ..but they can't ..since the supply is still 85. Now since the sum of the elements MUST add up to the supply.....
Yes, that's true IF the supply pressure is kept at 85 psi ... I never debated otherwise.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What occurs according the the revolution man???
Keep is short. You tend to make this "bypass" and go forward into a dissertation that goes "out of bounds".
Under your rhetoric(a presumption on my part) ..both the engine and the filter should retreat in parallel ..but we still have that nagging 85lb inconveniently hanging out there ...
Yes, the engine and filter PSID must both retread in parallel since there are both fixed "flow resistors". Just like if you decreased the voltage (ie, supply pressure) on two fixed resistors in series; the voltage drop across each resistor would decrease in parallel as the current (ie, flow volume) also decreased due to less supply pressure.
If the oil pump is always at it's relief pressure of 85 psi, then there will always be the same pressure drop across the filter and engine in the same ratio. Keep in mind that in order to maintain the 85 psi supply pressure with pump in relief, the pump would have to produce more volume to the filter/engine as the oil warmed up and became thinner. That just means less is diverted to the sump at the oil warms up during pressure relief mode.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Those two elements must add up to it ..and as the flow increases ...are you suggesting that they both stay @ 16 and @69 until the relief closes? That the filter will always be @ about 4.5X:1 ratio with the engine?
Yes, that's how I see it in an ideal situation - I gave PSID ratio examples above. In your case, I'd describe it as the filter always being ~19% of the total pressure drop (16 psi/85 psi). I believe most filters would have much less than 16 PSID on an engine with a supply pressure of 85 psi ... however I know this is just an "example.
If the oil pump's pressure relief was ideal and could actually control its output pressure to 85 psi under all RPM and viscosity conditions, then the PSID split ratio of the system should remain basically constant.
So what this also means is that if the filter's PSID due to oil flow is always less than it's bypass setting when the pump is in relief mode, then the filter would ideally never go into bypass mode.
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