zppd mechanism

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

GMorg

Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
2,435
Location
Mizzou-land
I found an interesting article in Science, but due to copyright issues, I cannot post it. However, I also found an evaluation/editorial of the same article by another author and considered it "pretty good". So, if you are interested in the theoretical mechanism of zinc polyphosphate matix formation, have a read. The orginal article was: Mosey et al., 2005. Molecular mechanisms for the functionality of lubricant additives. Science 307:1612-1615.


http://www.apmaths.uwo.ca/~mmuser/Papers/TL05.pdf
 
Great find! Thanks for this and all the other good links you've posted in other threads too. This article makes me wonder if virgin motor oil would be optimized for engine use if it were heated until the ZDDP transformed and became activated, so that it could start working sooner after the new oil was put it the engine. I had no idea that ZDDP functioned in such an interesting, complex way.
 
This has been discussed before in other threads.

They're trying to research how zddp works on a molecular basis in order to determine how to develop new AW additives without metals (ash producing chemicals) and phosphorus.

So far, they have determined that low levels of zddp AND other AW additives form a synergistic combo, but no one NEW AW additive suffices.

See also:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=56;t=000026
 
Yes, good catch Gmborg. I saw mention of temperature but upon closer reading it is the high pressures and associated high temperatures from contact that causes the magic. The relatively low temps (220F) I was thinking of are likely much too low to "activate" the ZDDP.

Does anyone think that BMW's new aluminum cylinder sleeved engines might have wear problems? The block is magnesium and cylinder liners are high-silicon aluminum alloy. I was concerned about their longevity before learning that ZDDP is much less effective on aluminum than iron, but now I'm even more concerned. Did BMW come up with an oil spec (like BMW LL-01) meant specifically for these engines - one that requires oils to use plenty of alternative anti-wear additives like those listed in Molakule's thread? I'm sure BMW did a lot of tests but am curious as to whether the aluminum alloy choice is simply that good or that it still requires very special oils to maintain same engine longevity that the iron cylinder sleeve engines have.
 
JAG

The zinc polyphospate matrix forms well on hard surfaces - that includes the silcon portions of the surface of silicon/Al.
 
MolaKule,

Thanks for bringing the above (closed) thread to my attention. The thread appears to have drifted into biology-based hydrocarbons. This is near to my area of expertise. I'm a genetic engineer. I make Genetically Modified organisms (GMorg) for a living. I am absolutely convinced that transgenic crops can deliver most any fatty acid, polyol, wax, or even polyester. The cost (in general) would be in the ball-park of canola oil. Transgenic production of industrial hydrocarbons is an active area of research. The problem is, there aren't many groups interested. The groups with money have realized that carbon that squirts from rocks can be very economical.
 
JAG

In the original paper, the authors stress that the zinc polyphosphate matrix is created by pressure, not temperature. This is a very important conclusion because it helps explain why zddp is useful for hardened materials, but not softer ones. Apparently, zppd in almost useless in an all-aluminimun mating.
 
quote:
I make Genetically Modified organisms (GMorg) for a living. I am absolutely convinced that transgenic crops can deliver most any fatty acid, polyol, wax, or even polyester. The cost (in general) would be in the ball-park of canola oil. Transgenic production of industrial hydrocarbons is an active area of research. The problem is, there aren't many groups interested.
Click to expand...
Keep up the good work and please continue your research.

I have been researching and testing formulations for some time that include high oleic seed (legume) and other vegetable oils.

There are some people on BITOG that poo-poo this research but I am convinced of its efficacy.

One of our products, a chain saw lubricant, contains significant quantities of seed oils for purposes of biodegradeability. The formulation has worked very well for those who appreciate biodegradable products in the outdoors.

We are also working with additive manf. to tune AO's to work with those exotic oils.
 
Gmorg, I have too been involved with development of "biology based hydro-carbons" as they relate directly to lubes, mostly automotive oriented. Less academic, more R&D/ applied science from testing interpretation angle.

Each time I have worked in the last 10 years on a project,( usually government funded) the cash shuts off or the principals strip the cash and close up shop.

Uncle Freeman is very interested in this area too!

Terry
 
"One of our products, a chain saw lubricant, contains significant quantities of seed oils for purposes of biodegradeability. The formulation has worked very well for those who appreciate biodegradable products in the outdoors."

I have worked on high oleic oil for perhaps 10 years and made bio chain lubes and always found it kinda funny to use a eviro frendly oil to CUT down a tree?
Any way seed oils need to be closer in price to mineral oil and must have minimal double or triple bonds to reduce breakdown BUT i do agree they are coming just NOT yet IMHO.
bruce
 
A tree is cut "Down" to harvest it, in order to allow younger trees to grow. Trees are renewable resources.

Some of the seed oils are already here and being used in lubricant formulations by more "progressive" companies.
 
"Trees are renewable resources."

They are, but they do take time to renew and are not a limitless resource. It's amazing that we only seem staisfied when we've exhausted pretty much ALL of a resource. Even in the Pacific NW old growth comprises single digit percentages of the forests, where local guidebooks describe remaining stands as like looking at animals in zoos. Some areas that were harvested in the 1980s still haven't been replanted, and are just a rubble of rotton stumps. As I recall the majority of the forests being harvested in Canada are used for junk mail, as we don't have enough tree farms like some of the high growth rate poplar seen in some areas around here.
 
offtopic.gif


Let's be careful here. If this gets too politcal this thread will be pulled.

I wish Bruce had avoided the subject and stuck to the topics of zddp and additives.
 
Since it takes heat and pressure to activate ZDDP, is that why we see a spike in wear metals imediately after an oil change?
 
The spike could be from increased wear due to an incomplete ZDDP film, but then one needs to wonder what happened to the existing ZDDP film. If fresh oil is disrupting the film then the increased wear metals could be due to increased wear due to the incomplete film, or wear metals are being released from the disrupted film (the article confirms others in noting that iron for instance is incorporated in the film), or a combination of both.
 
"I wish Bruce had avoided the subject and stuck to the topics of ZDDP AND ADDITIVES"

Huh? lighten up, please check progression of this thread I was NOT the first person to mention bio lubes or chain saw oil blame yourself, I just gave my opionion to a previous posting.

And yes I use and know all about the large number of seed and bio enginered lube base stocks, aswell and bio based addiives.

I started selling and formulating 100% seed/bio-additive based lubes of all kind over 15 years and have used bio based aditives of my own design over 25 years ago so I guess Im progressive to.

ALL I said was need to be cheaper and more work done on them to push mineral oil besed products aside.

bruce
 
So, if pressure is required to form zinc polyphosphate and if soft metals do not provide the hardness required to support those pressures, then does the film form when a hard metal is mated to a soft metal? If it does, then are the high pressures very local and not the result of surface/surface inteactions. Perhaps I can't wrap my mind around this, but Newton would suggest that the force on one side of the sandwiched zddp would have to equal the force on the other side at some point.

As for the spike in wear metals, is it possible that this is due to solubility of the metals? For a time, I workded in a trace mineral lab. I could tell you which beaker a water sample had been in based on the leached metals. Each beaker naturally had a different "signature" of contamination.
 
Since metalo-organics are consumed during the process of building the boundary matrix, is there a way to evaluate this consumption. If one could follow the disappearance of starting material or if one could follow the surface shedding of sheared degradation products, then one may be able to gain insight into what is being required of a lube. I would think that this ability would be more telling of engine design and load, but under controlled conditions it may also allow evaluation of lube formulations.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Cujet
  • Locked
Penn and ExxonMobil uncover mechanisms of ZDDP
Replies
9
Views
3K
ZZBottom
T
  • Locked
High performance lubricant additives Patent
Replies
6
Views
3K
Mokanic
Back
Top