Originally Posted By: MalfunctionProne
Originally Posted By: hotwheels
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: hotwheels
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
hotwheels said:
You can't fight city hall - or can you?
- Thread starter hotwheels
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Originally Posted By: splinter
Legitimate automotive repair businesses in California are required to obtain, maintain and post “in a conspicuous location” a Bureau of Automotive Repair license (and disclosures), California Franchise Tax Board Resale license number and a California Air Resources Board license number, amongst others.
Almost cities also require a current business license and valid CUP (conditional use permit) to be posted. His doesn't?
As I said, the shop operates without the required permits and licenses and the city covers for the owner, for whatever reasons they may have. If my friend goes above city level for help, they just send him back to city hall. So where would you go?
In that town it is commonly known that city hall is corrupt. The current city manger lost her previous administrative job because of being involved in covering up a sex scandal. That type person makes up the city administration. The city council members don't get elected, they appoint each other. I have attended a few city council meetings. There are alkways a few people who say their piece about corruption and missmanagement and who get merrily ignored. During city council meetings you may neither address a council member directly nor may you ask them to respond.
There are other issues. For example, behind the shop is offically a fire lane. The fire lane is always blocked by parked customer cars. A complaint with the fire chief resulted in the claim, "There is a fire lane and if it is blocked we will just clear it as needed." No effort was made to keep the fire lane clear or parked vehicles." The city simply does not enforce their own codes and regulations.
hotwheels
Legitimate automotive repair businesses in California are required to obtain, maintain and post “in a conspicuous location” a Bureau of Automotive Repair license (and disclosures), California Franchise Tax Board Resale license number and a California Air Resources Board license number, amongst others.
Almost cities also require a current business license and valid CUP (conditional use permit) to be posted. His doesn't?
As I said, the shop operates without the required permits and licenses and the city covers for the owner, for whatever reasons they may have. If my friend goes above city level for help, they just send him back to city hall. So where would you go?
In that town it is commonly known that city hall is corrupt. The current city manger lost her previous administrative job because of being involved in covering up a sex scandal. That type person makes up the city administration. The city council members don't get elected, they appoint each other. I have attended a few city council meetings. There are alkways a few people who say their piece about corruption and missmanagement and who get merrily ignored. During city council meetings you may neither address a council member directly nor may you ask them to respond.
There are other issues. For example, behind the shop is offically a fire lane. The fire lane is always blocked by parked customer cars. A complaint with the fire chief resulted in the claim, "There is a fire lane and if it is blocked we will just clear it as needed." No effort was made to keep the fire lane clear or parked vehicles." The city simply does not enforce their own codes and regulations.
hotwheels
K. I read your story. Let me condense it.
Homeowner retires. Shop has been there almost as long as homeowner,prior to homeowners retirement he didn't notice the noise. No harm no foul.
Shops owner is politically connected,has friends in high places.
Homeowner starts causing trouble,filing complaints,making shop owners friends tire quickly of the sound of his voice exaserbating his plight.
Shop owner never got permits. He has friends who turned a blind eye,now those friends are seeing the homeowner stir up a pot of [censored] soup,which will expose their part in the non enforcement of policy and thus make them look bad,which only makes the homeowners situation worse because the politicians who are supposed to be representing him are the ones who allowed it to happen in the first place thus they aren't going to help the homeowner expose the situation because it's their doing.
Now at this point a reasonable man knows he can't win. The cover up/corruption involves the people he is complaining to,thus his cries fall on deaf ears.
So the old man being that he's got not much else to do decides he's going to take on city hall and expose the dirtbags for what they are.
How much help do you think he'll get once this crusade starts. Sure he's fighting the good fight and I admire his spirit however there isn't a snowballs chance in hades I'm spending 40 grand that I slaved for my entire life so I could enjoy my golden years.
The writing was on the wall after there wasn't anything done about the lack of permits. At that point he either puts them both up as rentals and moves,or sells both and moves,but end result is still moving.
I completely understand his mindset and his thought process. He believed that he was right,and in my opinion he is,and he expected that the right thing would be done however that's not how our world works.
In strawberry shortcake land,and the Care Bears rainbow town justice always prevails and the little guy can win if he follows all the rules. The thing is the opponent isn't following the rules,and they don't have to because the game is rigged and the rules only matter when your neighbour is a little guy just like you.
When the enemy sits on the board of commerce and is in bed with the guys who didn't feel that permits were important what does that tell you.
It tells me that these guys are in some way part of the tire shop and are either getting money from it,or its a front company used to help wash money that doesn't come from legit sources.
Why else would these guys completely ignore regulations,then ignore and blackball the guy who complains when it comes to light.
Its because that shop is in some way benefitting the guys who are turning the blind eye.
So yes I agree it's an injustice
HOWEVER
A reasonable man sees the writing on the wall. When it was obvious that no amount of complaining would fix it he should have quit. He didn't.
Then he thought it wise to retain council,spending a significant sum of his retirement fund,at which point he was arrested on trumped up charges and discredited in his community. City hall was prepared to shut him up at all costs.
That alone should tell a reasonable man that that tire shop is much more than a tire shop and if it's being protected in this manner by city officials it begs the question why.
So yes. The homeowner was absolutely in the right but that in no way means he is going to win. He got stubborn and his back went up when it was exposed that nothing was going to change and at that point he should have cut his losses and found a nice quiet street in a community where someone else cuts the lawn and rakes the leaves.
He chose to pursue and instigate which only cost him in the end,which is an injustice in every sense of the word,but not a surprise.
This man worked his whole life and finally reached the point he could shut er down and enjoy the rest of his days,and I think it's criminal to take that from him,however from what I read between the lines the homeowner went above and beyond in his efforts to expose and discredit the very people who could help him which is equal to shooting himself in the foot.
I'm not saying moving is the tight thing to do right off the bat. What I am saying is once it was obvious the game was rigged it's time to stop playing before the house takes the shirt off your back.
He chose to keep playing,and he's no match for a savvy politician with something to hide.
City hall is entrenched so deep they even had the local media ignoring him. And once he started complaining up the ladder city hall had enough of the homeowners behaviour on record that anyone he tried to call dropped him like a hot potato.
We see this all the time in politics. If an investigation is getting too close to something they immediately attack the complainants credibility and out of the woodwork someone files a statement implicating the complainant in some kind of bull that is blown out of proportion.
Land of the free eh. Until one persons freedom starts costing another one money,then fair play and doing the right thing no longer apply,and suddenly it's a take no prisoners blood sport.
Should be called land of the cash and home of the slave.
K. I may have gone too far with that last line,it just bugs me that this guy works his whole life just to get trampled in the twilight of his life,by people who are only concerned with keeping the gears of their machine turning,and they don't care if the wheels are greased in this guy they trampled blood
Homeowner retires. Shop has been there almost as long as homeowner,prior to homeowners retirement he didn't notice the noise. No harm no foul.
Shops owner is politically connected,has friends in high places.
Homeowner starts causing trouble,filing complaints,making shop owners friends tire quickly of the sound of his voice exaserbating his plight.
Shop owner never got permits. He has friends who turned a blind eye,now those friends are seeing the homeowner stir up a pot of [censored] soup,which will expose their part in the non enforcement of policy and thus make them look bad,which only makes the homeowners situation worse because the politicians who are supposed to be representing him are the ones who allowed it to happen in the first place thus they aren't going to help the homeowner expose the situation because it's their doing.
Now at this point a reasonable man knows he can't win. The cover up/corruption involves the people he is complaining to,thus his cries fall on deaf ears.
So the old man being that he's got not much else to do decides he's going to take on city hall and expose the dirtbags for what they are.
How much help do you think he'll get once this crusade starts. Sure he's fighting the good fight and I admire his spirit however there isn't a snowballs chance in hades I'm spending 40 grand that I slaved for my entire life so I could enjoy my golden years.
The writing was on the wall after there wasn't anything done about the lack of permits. At that point he either puts them both up as rentals and moves,or sells both and moves,but end result is still moving.
I completely understand his mindset and his thought process. He believed that he was right,and in my opinion he is,and he expected that the right thing would be done however that's not how our world works.
In strawberry shortcake land,and the Care Bears rainbow town justice always prevails and the little guy can win if he follows all the rules. The thing is the opponent isn't following the rules,and they don't have to because the game is rigged and the rules only matter when your neighbour is a little guy just like you.
When the enemy sits on the board of commerce and is in bed with the guys who didn't feel that permits were important what does that tell you.
It tells me that these guys are in some way part of the tire shop and are either getting money from it,or its a front company used to help wash money that doesn't come from legit sources.
Why else would these guys completely ignore regulations,then ignore and blackball the guy who complains when it comes to light.
Its because that shop is in some way benefitting the guys who are turning the blind eye.
So yes I agree it's an injustice
HOWEVER
A reasonable man sees the writing on the wall. When it was obvious that no amount of complaining would fix it he should have quit. He didn't.
Then he thought it wise to retain council,spending a significant sum of his retirement fund,at which point he was arrested on trumped up charges and discredited in his community. City hall was prepared to shut him up at all costs.
That alone should tell a reasonable man that that tire shop is much more than a tire shop and if it's being protected in this manner by city officials it begs the question why.
So yes. The homeowner was absolutely in the right but that in no way means he is going to win. He got stubborn and his back went up when it was exposed that nothing was going to change and at that point he should have cut his losses and found a nice quiet street in a community where someone else cuts the lawn and rakes the leaves.
He chose to pursue and instigate which only cost him in the end,which is an injustice in every sense of the word,but not a surprise.
This man worked his whole life and finally reached the point he could shut er down and enjoy the rest of his days,and I think it's criminal to take that from him,however from what I read between the lines the homeowner went above and beyond in his efforts to expose and discredit the very people who could help him which is equal to shooting himself in the foot.
I'm not saying moving is the tight thing to do right off the bat. What I am saying is once it was obvious the game was rigged it's time to stop playing before the house takes the shirt off your back.
He chose to keep playing,and he's no match for a savvy politician with something to hide.
City hall is entrenched so deep they even had the local media ignoring him. And once he started complaining up the ladder city hall had enough of the homeowners behaviour on record that anyone he tried to call dropped him like a hot potato.
We see this all the time in politics. If an investigation is getting too close to something they immediately attack the complainants credibility and out of the woodwork someone files a statement implicating the complainant in some kind of bull that is blown out of proportion.
Land of the free eh. Until one persons freedom starts costing another one money,then fair play and doing the right thing no longer apply,and suddenly it's a take no prisoners blood sport.
Should be called land of the cash and home of the slave.
K. I may have gone too far with that last line,it just bugs me that this guy works his whole life just to get trampled in the twilight of his life,by people who are only concerned with keeping the gears of their machine turning,and they don't care if the wheels are greased in this guy they trampled blood
Seems to me like if they were laundering money they'd have all their permits in order.
The thing you'll run into is government trying to be "business friendly" and giving the shop lots of warnings/ probation/ admonisments. The shop will know how to delay or ignore or make a "plan to get on track" that'll be good enough.
FYI a Chamber of Commerce is a non-governmental organization but works closely with city hall to help their members navigate regulation, and to help city hall regulate to benefit the members.
If you like being a pain, dig up the tax maps on this tire shop, find out where their parking lot ends, find out if they're paying taxes on this "illegal expansion" and go after the tax collector for deriliction of duty if he isn't assessing the place properly.
The thing you'll run into is government trying to be "business friendly" and giving the shop lots of warnings/ probation/ admonisments. The shop will know how to delay or ignore or make a "plan to get on track" that'll be good enough.
FYI a Chamber of Commerce is a non-governmental organization but works closely with city hall to help their members navigate regulation, and to help city hall regulate to benefit the members.
If you like being a pain, dig up the tax maps on this tire shop, find out where their parking lot ends, find out if they're paying taxes on this "illegal expansion" and go after the tax collector for deriliction of duty if he isn't assessing the place properly.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Seems to me like if they were laundering money they'd have all their permits in order.
The thing you'll run into is government trying to be "business friendly" and giving the shop lots of warnings/ probation/ admonisments. The shop will know how to delay or ignore or make a "plan to get on track" that'll be good enough.
FYI a Chamber of Commerce is a non-governmental organization but works closely with city hall to help their members navigate regulation, and to help city hall regulate to benefit the members.
If you like being a pain, dig up the tax maps on this tire shop, find out where their parking lot ends, find out if they're paying taxes on this "illegal expansion" and go after the tax collector for deriliction of duty if he isn't assessing the place properly.
At the FEDERAL level.
Seems to me like if they were laundering money they'd have all their permits in order.
The thing you'll run into is government trying to be "business friendly" and giving the shop lots of warnings/ probation/ admonisments. The shop will know how to delay or ignore or make a "plan to get on track" that'll be good enough.
FYI a Chamber of Commerce is a non-governmental organization but works closely with city hall to help their members navigate regulation, and to help city hall regulate to benefit the members.
If you like being a pain, dig up the tax maps on this tire shop, find out where their parking lot ends, find out if they're paying taxes on this "illegal expansion" and go after the tax collector for deriliction of duty if he isn't assessing the place properly.
At the FEDERAL level.
Assuming all of your allegations of corruption are true, there are a couple of different oversight organizations that investigate charges such as this.
The FBI, state attorney general, Council on Government Ethics Laws, and the California Fair Political Practices Commission all investigate allegations of fraud and/or abuse at the city government level.
Quite frankly, your friend would be best served to simply move. His residential property is next to a property that is zoned for commercial/industrial use-he's always going to have a fair amount of noise from next door. Investing in a residential property in that location was foolish to begin with.
The FBI, state attorney general, Council on Government Ethics Laws, and the California Fair Political Practices Commission all investigate allegations of fraud and/or abuse at the city government level.
Quite frankly, your friend would be best served to simply move. His residential property is next to a property that is zoned for commercial/industrial use-he's always going to have a fair amount of noise from next door. Investing in a residential property in that location was foolish to begin with.
I would find out what state laws are being violated by the business. He is NOT going to win at the local level so move on to state authorities. In this economy no state taxing jurisdiction is going to turn a blind eye to free money.
Has your friend tried contacting the local news media? They LOVE a good story on government corruption.
40K on LAWYERS??? crazy. You should move. I never heard of a shop closing due to noise. City probably says "a tire shop does makes noise". If Lawyer, city hall, and the state won't do anything. You lost. Get over it. The lawyers scammed you out of 40k, they knew you couldn't win.
It's very sad, your using your retirement to waste that kind of money. I would be traveling the world with that money. I'm only 37, but if you were my dad, I would declare you mentally incompetent so I get something in my inheritance.
just kidding. How much you plan to spend 500k bucks? stop the madness. Hotwheels "friend" is so desperate that it's become personal. Let it go, sane people would either live with the noise or move.
It's very sad, your using your retirement to waste that kind of money. I would be traveling the world with that money. I'm only 37, but if you were my dad, I would declare you mentally incompetent so I get something in my inheritance.
Yes, you can fight City Hall.
It takes lots of money, time, backbone, and you have to exhaust all your local remedies in the city kangaroo courts to get to a real court. Most people, understandably, just get worn down by it. One side has pretty much unlimited resources and cronies, the other usually not.
There is a reason for the old adage that if property next door comes up for sale, you buy it.
Edit: maybe your pal should buy some lots somewhere else, hire a house mover to move those houses, and file for a zoning change on his now vacant property to some variety of commercial, since it's next to a commercial enterprise. Commercial property is generally worth more than residential. Hard to see an objection to rezoning it. You can generally get a good feel for those things before you do it, unless he's become such a complete pita that they just don't care to work with him.
Maybe the tire guy will buy it and expand some more.
It takes lots of money, time, backbone, and you have to exhaust all your local remedies in the city kangaroo courts to get to a real court. Most people, understandably, just get worn down by it. One side has pretty much unlimited resources and cronies, the other usually not.
There is a reason for the old adage that if property next door comes up for sale, you buy it.
Edit: maybe your pal should buy some lots somewhere else, hire a house mover to move those houses, and file for a zoning change on his now vacant property to some variety of commercial, since it's next to a commercial enterprise. Commercial property is generally worth more than residential. Hard to see an objection to rezoning it. You can generally get a good feel for those things before you do it, unless he's become such a complete pita that they just don't care to work with him.
Maybe the tire guy will buy it and expand some more.
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Originally Posted By: hotwheels
So according to you a businss can and should legally operate without the permits that the city requires? Whoever doesn't like it can move? Otherwise he isn't very bright? I think you should move there.
Who wants to rent a place where impact wrenches go off across the fence all day long? Who wants to buy such a place? Maybe a deaf person.
hotwheels
I'd move there in a second!
If they are using various air tools, they won't gripe about me doing the same!
So according to you a businss can and should legally operate without the permits that the city requires? Whoever doesn't like it can move? Otherwise he isn't very bright? I think you should move there.
Who wants to rent a place where impact wrenches go off across the fence all day long? Who wants to buy such a place? Maybe a deaf person.
hotwheels
I'd move there in a second!
If they are using various air tools, they won't gripe about me doing the same!
In a kind of similar situation in Oklahoma the citizen brought in the OBI and the hammer fell and fell hard. He did eventually get all his previous tickets and lawyer fees paid, and the city lawyer was disbarred. The police chief was fired and supposedly lifetime barred from law enforcement.
Rod
Rod
I'm only reading one side of the story. If that is all to be true, that's quite a complex and elaborate conspiracy against your friend - just for complainant about noise from a auto repair business. Most government does not operate that way because nearly everything is documented. If all of the government officials here are that corrupt and smart about their malfeasance, then your friend needs to concede to this elaborate cover up. I'm certainly leaving open that this is all true. I'm just saying if this "machine" is that well oiled, "John Q. Public" should just save his energy and move on.
After reading every post here this is my understanding of the story:
1) Your friend live in an area next to a tire shop, border of residential and commercial / industrial zone. He didn't complain until he retired. He didn't complain when the tire shop open. He didn't complain when he bought the house.
2) Your friend just assume the tire shop is in the wrong because the law is violated, and the tire shop has no right to be loud because it wasn't loud to begin with.
3) Your friend assume he can get what he wanted, and the tire shop owner cannot.
4) Your friend spent 40k on attorney and the attorney told him to just drop the fight because it is hard to win. (This is a big red flag here)
5) Your friend decided not to move and keep fighting because he does not like to lose.
This is my 2 cents:
1) Your friend should just move, it may not be something easy to do but it is the easiest thing to do, and the cheapest. The reduction in blood pressure alone is worth it.
2) Your friend can sue, but most likely it will end up losing (because his lawyer said so), or in the end just get some small settlement (maybe $5000 after all the legal expense he already paid for) and the tire shop owner's insurance buy him out, without admitting guilt.
3) Your friend is trying to shut down many families' income because it disturb his peace and quiet, and expect nobody will fight back. Seriously what does he think he would get? I'm surprised people didn't do a story about this Permit Patrick get off my lawn old man trying to shut down families that would have gone unemployed, many likely worse off than him, turning lives around in a second chance, etc etc. All because of some noise.
4) Your friend bought a place that is less desirable and he should expect reasonable noise, it is reasonable to expect tire shop to have impact noise, repair noise, etc etc. You cannot expect it to turn into an empty lot forever, it is all about technicality of the zoning law.
5) Your friend assume the law will never change. If he is smart he would lobby for zoning code change but so could businesses. They could get together and have enough influence to pass a law or zoning code change that increase the noise level allowed. There will be nothing your friend can do. It is the real corruption, not the "he doesn't have a permit", not having permit or borderline operation within the permit is small fry corruption, so small that nobody care.
6) Being loud is expected next to the tire shop, public opinion won't care too much about it regardless of permit. Your friend won't get much public support, or less public support than say a tire shop close down because some get off my lawn old man thinks it is loud, and 5 families are now in financial struggle because of this Permit Patrick's complain about noise.
1) Your friend live in an area next to a tire shop, border of residential and commercial / industrial zone. He didn't complain until he retired. He didn't complain when the tire shop open. He didn't complain when he bought the house.
2) Your friend just assume the tire shop is in the wrong because the law is violated, and the tire shop has no right to be loud because it wasn't loud to begin with.
3) Your friend assume he can get what he wanted, and the tire shop owner cannot.
4) Your friend spent 40k on attorney and the attorney told him to just drop the fight because it is hard to win. (This is a big red flag here)
5) Your friend decided not to move and keep fighting because he does not like to lose.
This is my 2 cents:
1) Your friend should just move, it may not be something easy to do but it is the easiest thing to do, and the cheapest. The reduction in blood pressure alone is worth it.
2) Your friend can sue, but most likely it will end up losing (because his lawyer said so), or in the end just get some small settlement (maybe $5000 after all the legal expense he already paid for) and the tire shop owner's insurance buy him out, without admitting guilt.
3) Your friend is trying to shut down many families' income because it disturb his peace and quiet, and expect nobody will fight back. Seriously what does he think he would get? I'm surprised people didn't do a story about this Permit Patrick get off my lawn old man trying to shut down families that would have gone unemployed, many likely worse off than him, turning lives around in a second chance, etc etc. All because of some noise.
4) Your friend bought a place that is less desirable and he should expect reasonable noise, it is reasonable to expect tire shop to have impact noise, repair noise, etc etc. You cannot expect it to turn into an empty lot forever, it is all about technicality of the zoning law.
5) Your friend assume the law will never change. If he is smart he would lobby for zoning code change but so could businesses. They could get together and have enough influence to pass a law or zoning code change that increase the noise level allowed. There will be nothing your friend can do. It is the real corruption, not the "he doesn't have a permit", not having permit or borderline operation within the permit is small fry corruption, so small that nobody care.
6) Being loud is expected next to the tire shop, public opinion won't care too much about it regardless of permit. Your friend won't get much public support, or less public support than say a tire shop close down because some get off my lawn old man thinks it is loud, and 5 families are now in financial struggle because of this Permit Patrick's complain about noise.
This is California, we have prop 13. The worse is he get some parking ticket but won't change the property assessment unless it is sold.
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