Finding a filter that actually has a lot of debris in it these days is unusual- usually a neglected engine that's being cleaned up by a new owner. 40+ years ago, I think grit and sludge from the poorer oils available was far more common and filters needed to be large enough to deal with it.
Why so many small oil filters on vehicles?
- Thread starter callbay
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GM G Team engineer specifically told me that the smaller filter was because a larger one offered no benefit in filtration and their new engine family was much cleaner than before.
I suspect they know what they want, even if the reason given is not true.
As stated above, a larger filter is a feel good mod, no proven benefits at all...
I suspect they know what they want, even if the reason given is not true.
As stated above, a larger filter is a feel good mod, no proven benefits at all...
Originally Posted By: CT8
The smaller filters came with the removal of lead from the gasoline.
You made the same claim in this thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3603698/1
But after being asked how that made a difference I didn't see your response. Can you explain?
The smaller filters came with the removal of lead from the gasoline.
You made the same claim in this thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3603698/1
But after being asked how that made a difference I didn't see your response. Can you explain?
Originally Posted By: TTK
Good points. And, perhaps filters don't make as much difference as many BITOG posters believe.
That's heresy.
Good points. And, perhaps filters don't make as much difference as many BITOG posters believe.
That's heresy.
IMO it is just simply because as viscosity spec gets lower it is easier for the oil to pass thru the media so you need less filter area for the same volume of thinner oil.
A larger filter with more media is able pass more or thicker oil and catch more junk before the bypass pressure is reached. (We don't want to be in bypass)
A small filter usually costs the same as a larger one so why would you want a smaller one when a larger margin for safety can be had at no cost.
A larger filter with more media is able pass more or thicker oil and catch more junk before the bypass pressure is reached. (We don't want to be in bypass)
A small filter usually costs the same as a larger one so why would you want a smaller one when a larger margin for safety can be had at no cost.
Originally Posted By: Branson304
I agree. I get tired of people running filters larger than specified on their vehicles in this forum. And when someone asks for a filter recommendation, half the people chime in with what oversized filter will work instead of what you should use. What's wrong with just using the filter that is recommended? How is an oversized filter going to extend your engine's life in anyway? Face palm. Rant over.
Why does what other people do personally affect you? Who cares. A larger filter isn't going to hurt their vehicle. Their filter choices certainly 100% aren't going to hurt your vehicle. The larger filter may actually be cheaper too. FL500s runs about $6. FL820s runs about $4. I've been thinking about running a giant Baldwin on my 5.0 for the heck of it. Just have to do some figuring to make sure it won't hit the oil cooler lines.
I agree. I get tired of people running filters larger than specified on their vehicles in this forum. And when someone asks for a filter recommendation, half the people chime in with what oversized filter will work instead of what you should use. What's wrong with just using the filter that is recommended? How is an oversized filter going to extend your engine's life in anyway? Face palm. Rant over.
Why does what other people do personally affect you? Who cares. A larger filter isn't going to hurt their vehicle. Their filter choices certainly 100% aren't going to hurt your vehicle. The larger filter may actually be cheaper too. FL500s runs about $6. FL820s runs about $4. I've been thinking about running a giant Baldwin on my 5.0 for the heck of it. Just have to do some figuring to make sure it won't hit the oil cooler lines.
Originally Posted By: John_Conrad
"Why so many small oil filters on vehicles?"
isn't it that with smaller filters, come lower pressure by-pass valves and thus a better safety device in the event of a high pressure differential such as a plugged filter element?
I would think a smaller filter with less media would have a higher bypass valve setting. With the media being the same and all other factors equal, as the media area decreases, the delta-p across the filter increases. Therefore to ensure no unwanted bypass events occur on the smaller filter, the bypass valve would have to be set a bit higher.
"Why so many small oil filters on vehicles?"
isn't it that with smaller filters, come lower pressure by-pass valves and thus a better safety device in the event of a high pressure differential such as a plugged filter element?
I would think a smaller filter with less media would have a higher bypass valve setting. With the media being the same and all other factors equal, as the media area decreases, the delta-p across the filter increases. Therefore to ensure no unwanted bypass events occur on the smaller filter, the bypass valve would have to be set a bit higher.
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
I believe in the case of the Hemi is was to reduce Hemi Tick syndrome upon startup. A smaller filter makes oil pressure faster upon start up making lubrication quicker which makes for a quiet engine.
If the ADBV is working properly, filter size should not affect how quickly oil pressure develops because the motor oil, unlike air, is virtually incompressible in comparison.
If the ADBV isn't working properly, the filter orientation might make a difference in filter size vs. how quickly oil pressure develops. For example, if the filter is vertically mounted dome side down, there should be no difference. If the filter is mounted dome downward at an angle between horizontal & vertical, then the volume emptied of motor oil by the faulty ADBV may be variable with oil filter case size.
I thought the change in OEM specified oil filter size for both the 5.7L and 6.4L hemis in Ram trucks corresponded with when the design changed to the electric power steering rack. I've read the prior filter size like my 2012 5.7L uses (MO-899 / PH2 or equivalent) can still fit but it's a tighter squeeze than on my vehicle that still employs a belt driven power steering pump.
I believe in the case of the Hemi is was to reduce Hemi Tick syndrome upon startup. A smaller filter makes oil pressure faster upon start up making lubrication quicker which makes for a quiet engine.
If the ADBV is working properly, filter size should not affect how quickly oil pressure develops because the motor oil, unlike air, is virtually incompressible in comparison.
If the ADBV isn't working properly, the filter orientation might make a difference in filter size vs. how quickly oil pressure develops. For example, if the filter is vertically mounted dome side down, there should be no difference. If the filter is mounted dome downward at an angle between horizontal & vertical, then the volume emptied of motor oil by the faulty ADBV may be variable with oil filter case size.
I thought the change in OEM specified oil filter size for both the 5.7L and 6.4L hemis in Ram trucks corresponded with when the design changed to the electric power steering rack. I've read the prior filter size like my 2012 5.7L uses (MO-899 / PH2 or equivalent) can still fit but it's a tighter squeeze than on my vehicle that still employs a belt driven power steering pump.
Did we ever "overload" the giant filters we used to use?
Lots of reasons for small filters. On the good side, modern engines with electronic fuel injection, better sealed air cleaners, and tighter tolerances run much cleaner. Modern oils are much better too, as are the materials the filters are made from. On the bad side, companies look to shave costs everywhere they can and smaller filters require less material to make. On a lot of cars the smaller filter allows them to fit one into a very tight space. I suspect there is an incentive to reduce the variety of parts in a car line too, so the same filter size gets specced to a number of different vehicles. One reason to run a larger filter is you have slightly more oil capacity. In some applications a different filter can fit much better and be easier to change. On one of my cars the longer filter is easier to get a grip on when I wriggle my arm up in there. Sometimes it is nice to switch to a filter number that fits but is more readily available or is cheaper. I keep a cheat sheet with the standard sizes and alternate filter sizes that fit my various vehicles.
Where can one look up alternate size filters for their vehicles?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Originally Posted By: callbay
Where can one look up alternate size filters for their vehicles?
Thanks.
Fram's catalog is a good place to start. framcatalog.com
Where can one look up alternate size filters for their vehicles?
Thanks.
Fram's catalog is a good place to start. framcatalog.com
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
If the ADBV isn't working properly, the filter orientation might make a difference in filter size vs. how quickly oil pressure develops. For example, if the filter is vertically mounted dome side down, there should be no difference. If the filter is mounted dome downward at an angle between horizontal & vertical, then the volume emptied of motor oil by the faulty ADBV may be variable with oil filter case size.
The oil in the galleries will still drain down regardless of ADBV, and require refilling. There's literally nothing holding it in the galleries, potential for air to get in the cam bearings, and the mains being open mean that they will drain down over time.
If the filter is above the crank centreline, then at any orientation other than gasket up, the filter can drain down over time regardless of the ADBV being faulty or not.
When Holden had their 1960s developed 6 moving into the 80s, they dropped the filter size greatly to reduce hydraulic lifter noise by whole numbers of seconds.
Oil pump driven off cam, with the filter horizontal meant that it drained down quite quickly.
If the ADBV isn't working properly, the filter orientation might make a difference in filter size vs. how quickly oil pressure develops. For example, if the filter is vertically mounted dome side down, there should be no difference. If the filter is mounted dome downward at an angle between horizontal & vertical, then the volume emptied of motor oil by the faulty ADBV may be variable with oil filter case size.
The oil in the galleries will still drain down regardless of ADBV, and require refilling. There's literally nothing holding it in the galleries, potential for air to get in the cam bearings, and the mains being open mean that they will drain down over time.
If the filter is above the crank centreline, then at any orientation other than gasket up, the filter can drain down over time regardless of the ADBV being faulty or not.
When Holden had their 1960s developed 6 moving into the 80s, they dropped the filter size greatly to reduce hydraulic lifter noise by whole numbers of seconds.
Oil pump driven off cam, with the filter horizontal meant that it drained down quite quickly.
Originally Posted By: callbay
Where can one look up alternate size filters for their vehicles?
Thanks.
You can go here and look up by dimension or other attributes.
https://catalog.donaldson.com/?st=tabs-3
Where can one look up alternate size filters for their vehicles?
Thanks.
You can go here and look up by dimension or other attributes.
https://catalog.donaldson.com/?st=tabs-3
Originally Posted By: callbay
Where can one look up alternate size filters for their vehicles?
The Hastings and Baldwin sites routinely list the alternate sizes when you look up a filter for your application.
Where can one look up alternate size filters for their vehicles?
The Hastings and Baldwin sites routinely list the alternate sizes when you look up a filter for your application.
They're smaller because of cost, packaging, and how much dirt they need to hold.
No harm in going bigger though, do what you think is best
No harm in going bigger though, do what you think is best
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
If the ADBV isn't working properly, the filter orientation might make a difference in filter size vs. how quickly oil pressure develops. For example, if the filter is vertically mounted dome side down, there should be no difference. If the filter is mounted dome downward at an angle between horizontal & vertical, then the volume emptied of motor oil by the faulty ADBV may be variable with oil filter case size.
The oil in the galleries will still drain down regardless of ADBV, and require refilling. There's literally nothing holding it in the galleries, potential for air to get in the cam bearings, and the mains being open mean that they will drain down over time.
If the filter is above the crank centreline, then at any orientation other than gasket up, the filter can drain down over time regardless of the ADBV being faulty or not.
When Holden had their 1960s developed 6 moving into the 80s, they dropped the filter size greatly to reduce hydraulic lifter noise by whole numbers of seconds.
Oil pump driven off cam, with the filter horizontal meant that it drained down quite quickly.
But over what time frame in most modern vehicles?
Minutes?
Hours?
Days?
Weeks?
Months?
I think most cars are designed to be daily drivers, and their oil filters designed to serve daily drivers. I have my share of experience with oil filters that drain back overnight as well as those who don't drain back overnight.
Or is this more of an issue for a vehicle driven quite infrequently, thereby showing a well functioning ADBV provides value for a typical modern daily driver in minimizing the volume to be refilled exclusive of oil filter case size?
My wife's 2011 Mustang 3.6L V6 has a horizontally mounted filter on the front of the block and doesn't have daily startup clatter with the spec'd 5W-20 and a Mobil 1 oil filter. The Mobil 1 M1-212 has the largest case size of compatible filters for this engine.
I've never owned a Holden, nor did my dad. Not likely to either.
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
If the ADBV isn't working properly, the filter orientation might make a difference in filter size vs. how quickly oil pressure develops. For example, if the filter is vertically mounted dome side down, there should be no difference. If the filter is mounted dome downward at an angle between horizontal & vertical, then the volume emptied of motor oil by the faulty ADBV may be variable with oil filter case size.
The oil in the galleries will still drain down regardless of ADBV, and require refilling. There's literally nothing holding it in the galleries, potential for air to get in the cam bearings, and the mains being open mean that they will drain down over time.
If the filter is above the crank centreline, then at any orientation other than gasket up, the filter can drain down over time regardless of the ADBV being faulty or not.
When Holden had their 1960s developed 6 moving into the 80s, they dropped the filter size greatly to reduce hydraulic lifter noise by whole numbers of seconds.
Oil pump driven off cam, with the filter horizontal meant that it drained down quite quickly.
But over what time frame in most modern vehicles?
Minutes?
Hours?
Days?
Weeks?
Months?
I think most cars are designed to be daily drivers, and their oil filters designed to serve daily drivers. I have my share of experience with oil filters that drain back overnight as well as those who don't drain back overnight.
Or is this more of an issue for a vehicle driven quite infrequently, thereby showing a well functioning ADBV provides value for a typical modern daily driver in minimizing the volume to be refilled exclusive of oil filter case size?
My wife's 2011 Mustang 3.6L V6 has a horizontally mounted filter on the front of the block and doesn't have daily startup clatter with the spec'd 5W-20 and a Mobil 1 oil filter. The Mobil 1 M1-212 has the largest case size of compatible filters for this engine.
I've never owned a Holden, nor did my dad. Not likely to either.
I've changed oil & filters on many vehicles over the years, and have never had one exhibit engine start-up noise, even after letting the engine drain over night - the ultimate lack of an ADBV. Guess some engines are way more sensitive to empty oil galleries at start-up than others.
My old LTD was noisy back in those days when starting at the morning, if using a non-ADBV, as I may have mentioned before. The filter specified was the Motorcraft CFL-1, with the FL1A being the upgrade with the ADBV - a "long life" filter in their parlance at the time. The AC Delco version had an ADBV, too, at a nice price then.
Of course, with almost everything we had at the time having Chevy small blocks, none of which specified filters with an ABDV, this was all new to me.
Of course, with almost everything we had at the time having Chevy small blocks, none of which specified filters with an ABDV, this was all new to me.
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