Why Rear Drive is Better

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Originally Posted By: subiedriver
Also, fwd eats up tires, steering and delivering power at the same time. FWD also plows hard in sharp turns under power.


Maybe your FWD eats up tires but mine doesn't. On the Fusion I am still on the original tires and will be making a trip to Florida Wednesday.
 
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
I certainly can't speak for "every 911 ever made", or anything like that, but I believe the 993C4 I spent some time behind the wheel of had equal sized brakes front and rear. I believe my 968 did too, but with less rear bias.


I believe the base brakes on the 997 are using 13" vented rotors front and rear. I should have mentioned that the 911 Carrera that went against the M3 in the C&D test had those. I was focusing more on the specs of the supercar test, where only the R8 had rear brakes that approached the size of the respective front brakes.

The 235 front tires on the Turbo are fairly small for a car with 15" front rotors. That may be a limiting factor too. I assume they keep them a little small for handling feel and to discourage oversteer. Regardless, I'll believe you that the braking feels great on those cars. The car probably gets settled very quickly under braking.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
One of the car rags used to do a 0 to 100 and back to 0 test on selected supercars from time to time, and the 911 turbo always just completely owned that test. It might lose the 0-100 section to a Viper or a Lamborghini or whatever, but it was *so* dominant on the 100-0 section that it always took the prize.


Road and Track did those. I didn't look too hard, so there are likely other tests or years where the 911 did better, but I pulled up the 2003 test where the Viper went against the 911 Turbo. The 911 won overall, but the Viper outbraked it.

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From the graph, it can be seen that the 911 Turbo acceleration prowess kicks in quickly but gradually. The Turbo's faster off-the-line 1st-gear pull gives it the edge over the Viper to 100 mph. On braking, both ABS-equipped cars slowed to a stop with exemplary results. Here, the Dodge's braking edges out the Porsche's by 9 ft., requiring only 290 ft. to decelerate to zero mph. However, this is still not enough to overcome the Turbo's amazing acceleration talents.


R&T 2003 0-100-0 Viper vs. 911 Turbo
 
Tig - I think the point was that if the tires aren't rotated, FWD will definitely wear the front tires faster than the rears. I've seen this noticeably on my dad's Camry. If the tires are kept rotated, they last ok.
 
Yes, as long as the tires are kept rotated, FWD tire life is similar to RWD in my experience.

I generally prefer FWD for my needs. Packaging is more efficient for interior accomodations, you have fewer rotating parts causing potential vibration, you have less rotating mass, and overall mass is often lower as well, given an otherwise "similar" vehicle.
 
I was thinking a little more, and it's not just cruise control; I prefer FWD for any highway speed driving on icy or snowy roads. It is not that uncommon for me to bomb down the left lane of an icy/snowy highway past a row of slow-moving vehicles at up to 90 mph in third gear with my foot to the floor, or as close as I can get at the limit of wheelspin, but I would not feel comfortable doing that with any RWD vehicle. AWD is good for that too, but it can be a little spooky because there is more acceleration available and you kind of float whenever all four wheels break traction under power, requiring minor steering corrections. It will still go wherever you point the steering wheel if you stay on the throttle though. The people being passed probably think I'm crazy, but I think they're crazy for trying to drive in the winter on all-seasons, so I guess we're even.

For example, a couple of years ago in the spring I was driving home from a trip to B.C. in my Mazda3 with a buddy in the passenger seat. The mountain road was covered in somewhat irregular slush and the car in front was driving slowly, so I threw it in third and punched it full throttle to pass on an uphill section. After passing, I asked my buddy if he would be willing to do that with his truck in RWD because, despite the fact that the slush would have far less effect on his 35" winter tires than my little tires, I certainly wouldn't. He replied that he would not, but he would do it in 4WD without a second thought.

The writer essentially doesn't like FWD because of power understeer and straight line stability, rather than power oversteer and the ability to rotate. But the former is exactly the way I want to feel the limit of traction on slippery roads because it requires only throttle correction and not steering correction.

In a 2009 Audi A4 review, Jack Baruth has some good commentary on the benefit of a street vehicle that would rather travel in a straight line than rotate:

Originally Posted By: Jack Baruth
Start with that idea of lightness: although the new A4 is significantly larger, a heavy dose of aluminum in the suspension and running gear means that it weighs no more than the outgoing car, once you adjust for equipment level. This sounded suspiciously like the proverbial “free lunch”, which is never free, (outside a press launch, anyway) but without a set of scales we were not able to verify the claim. What we would be able to do would be to verify the second major claim for the MLP: namely, that by reversing the orientation of the clutch pack (or in the case of Tiptronics, the torque converter) while moving the front axle forward and lengthening the wheelbase, Audi had managed to shift the A4′s traditionally front-heavy balance backwards a bit.

It’s worth taking a brief digression here to discuss whether the above is really a desirable outcome. BMW makes much hay of the fact that most of its cars have a nearly perfect 50/50 front-to-rear weight balance, and Infiniti has amassed a formidable amount of pseudo-engineering gobbledygook to suggest that the 52/48 balance of its original G35 is better than 50/50, but is a “perfect” balance really desirable in a street car? It’s possible to argue that it isn’t, and here’s why: In a street car, particularly one which will be driven at high speeds for long periods of time, straight-ahead stability is a critical asset. This becomes even more true when the road conditions are less than perfect; when hitting, say, a patch of ice at eighty miles per hour on the freeway, one’s greatest hope is that the car does not easily swap ends. Consider, for a moment, how we fix the behavior of a paper airplane which willfully refuses to fly straight. A paper clip to the nose usually does the trick, doesn’t it? To some degree, a front-engine design like Audi’s traditional longitudinal layout, which places the full mass of the motor ahead of the front wheels, is much like having a paper clip at the nose of our airplane. It tends to straighten the car out at speed, making for the most relaxing Autobahn experience possible. This, incidentally, is why your humble author finds long freeway trips to be much less stressful in his Phaeton than in his Porsche 911, as the Audiesque front-engine layout of the Phaeton inspires high-speed stability in exactly the way the 911’s rear-mounted flat-six does not. If we were to extend our paper airplane metaphor a bit, the Porsche’s a bit like putting the paper clip on the back of the plane; it may fly, but it will resist attempts to make it fly straight, because the inertia is continually moving at an axis slightly different from the path traced by the nose as a consequence of road crown, imperfect alignment, wind, you name it. In the real world, away from chat rooms, exaggerated boasts of trackday laptimes, and constant mentions of the mighty Nurburgring, an “uneven” front-biased car is often the best and safest choice. Once upon a time, in the days of that original Audi 5000, Audi was keen to emphasize the dynamic benefits of its longitudinal layout. Such a true shame that it would be marketing suicide nowadays to suggest that not every moment of a car’s life is spent in maximum-attack mode around a racetrack…


SSL 2009 Audi A4 Review
 
Originally Posted By: rpn453
It is not that uncommon for me to bomb down the left lane of an icy/snowy highway past a row of slow-moving vehicles at up to 90 mph in third gear with my foot to the floor, or as close as I can get at the limit of wheelspin...


I'm glad I don't live in Saskatchewan!
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I'm glad I don't live in Saskatchewan!


Just check your mirrors before pulling out to pass and you'll be fine!
 
People in upstate NY are like that too. Personally, I don't drive that fast in the snow simply because my tires are a bit wider than stock, and if I hit a slushy spot, the Jeep tends to float over it (such as changing lanes). However, to avoid getting blasted with salt, I have punched it pretty hard (not WOT though) and run from 40 - 70 to get past a plow faster in an inch and a half of snowy slush. I was in 2wd at the time, and spun the tires a little at first, but the Jeep was perfectly stable.

As long as the steering is straight, I can floor it quite safely in the snow. I don't go anywhere fast at WOT due to the excessive amount of wheelspin it creates, but the Jeep still points straight. If I punch it in 4FullTime (open center diff), it'll get sideways from torque steer. 4PartTime (locked driveshafts) is better, but still a little squirrely at WOT.

The key to RWD doing well in the snow is good weight balance and a vehicle with fairly neutral, predictable handling. If you lack these, RWD can be almost unmanageable in the slick stuff.

Basically, IMO, FWD is more idiot-proof, but if you're willing to put a bit of effort into driving, RWD beats it any day. Quite honestly, I'd much rather take a corner sideways and counter-steer than understeer.
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Honestly, as far as snow, FWD is terrible on hills, as you then have the acceleration weight transfer, and the weight transfer from being on a hill, and are left with little traction to move forward.

I've had a few cases where I've had FWD cars in front of me (with decent all season tires, not snows) lose momentum and get stuck on hills in front of me, causing me to slow down and go around them before continuing up the hill with no issues at all, even though I've been in 2wd most of the times this has happened, and I'm just running A/Ts, not snows.


Isn't the 1998 5.9 Grand Cherokee a full time system (Quadra-Trac)? (I used to own one, and that's how I remember it) So, how do you know it's in 2wd? In fact, IIRC, the maximum split was 5% front and 95% rear, so you can never be in 2wd.

*edit* I might be wrong on the 5/95 split (might be thinking of my Subaru Outback). Even so, I don't remember any indicator to show the torque split.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Grand_Cherokee#The_5.9.C2.A0L_Limited_ZJ_.281998.29
 
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It was originally. I swapped out the t-case for a 242 Selec-Trac system, so it's not full-time 4wd anymore. The original 249 t-case was about a 10/90 split in normal driving and would transfer forward under slip, and lock the shafts in 4lo.
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
The key to RWD doing well in the snow is good weight balance and a vehicle with fairly neutral, predictable handling. If you lack these, RWD can be almost unmanageable in the slick stuff.

Basically, IMO, FWD is more idiot-proof, but if you're willing to put a bit of effort into driving, RWD beats it any day. Quite honestly, I'd much rather take a corner sideways and counter-steer than understeer.


My 6 did not have an understeer problem in the last snow/ice storm. Steering was actually pretty good. I honestly can't see where RWD would have been better. I had some problems getting going but then again I have +1 wheels and tires that are a bit wider than stock and wearing summer tires.

Got passed by a 5-series in the ice. He has RWD and better balance than my car. he ended up backwards against the dividing wall. I just tracked right through the corner.
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Maybe it was just the extra 5 mph he was running.
 
^ He could have been going too fast, or hit the gas at the wrong time. No way to know without having been in the car. Some FWD cars are definitely better balanced than others in snow. If it's well balanced, provided you don't touch the gas, they'll be pretty similar. However, if you start gassing it, the difference becomes apparent. I like the ability to steer and apply power simultaneously, and if I overdo one and break traction at that end, I still have the other to correct with.
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
^ He could have been going too fast, or hit the gas at the wrong time.


Hitting the gas is not usually the problem which causes spins, it's lifting from the gas or hitting the brake. Throttle-lift oversteer is what probably spins far more people than power oversteer. The typical large amounts of factory-tuned understeer present in most vehicles has been put there to try to eliminate this scenario.

So you're in a vehicle, regardless of which wheels are driven, and you're coming into a slippery curve and realize you're over cooking it. What do most people do? Lift off the throttle. This transfers effective mass away from the rear and unsettles the chassis. Depending on how close you were to actually losing it before, you're even closer now or even starting to spin. When the average driver starts to feel this they panic even more and jab at the brake. Even more mass transfers away from the rear and the poke at the brake upsets the chassis even more. Enjoy the ride.

In a performance driving scenario you have to "keep your foot in it" ("it" being the throttle) to avoid spinning. This where the phrase came from, AFAIK. In some cars you even need to gently apply MORE power to keep from spinning (think 911). This behaviour is counter to most drivers' instincts unless taught and drilled to the contrary. RWD can make this scenario a little worse because any engine braking will be applied to the rear wheels where grip is being taken away from.

This all isn't to say that I still don't vastly prefer RWD.
 
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Originally Posted By: rslifkin
It was originally. I swapped out the t-case for a 242 Selec-Trac system, so it's not full-time 4wd anymore. The original 249 t-case was about a 10/90 split in normal driving and would transfer forward under slip, and lock the shafts in 4lo.


Yes, I remember that thing being excellent in the snow with the Quadra Trac, except there was so much torque it was easy to get sideways (these were the days before skid control).

I recall thinking that I could pull tree stumps out of the ground in 4Lo.

Mileage was brutal though. Still, to this day, a nice vehicle.
 
Yeah, it definitely requires a light foot in the snow, otherwise traction becomes nonexistent. And yeah, the gas mileage sucks. I'm getting about 13 on my current all-city commute to work, as the traffic lights are easy to time. Typical city is 12 - 13 for me, highway is 17 - 21 at 60 - 65mph.
 
If I had to choose one system and one system only, RWD takes my vote. Although I 'exercise' the 4WD system regularly on my Montero and Avalanche, they are in RWD (2H) mode when I'm on the road, even under wet road conditions.

Although very application specific, I like the ease of maintenance on a longitudinally mounted engine in a general sense. I also like the lighter feel of the steering wheel, as well as the added advantage of not having to deal with understeer in cornering situations.

A lot of my friends prefer FWD in wet conditions, but if the rear end ever breaks loose (which I experienced a good couple of times), power to the rear wheels is definitely an added advantage and can be a life saver if you know how to make use of it.

As far as torque steer is concerned, this does not really seem to be an issue on vehicles higher up the price range (Audi is a good example). But I certainly understand where people are coming from. It isn't much fun nailing the throttle from a standstill on a FWD either, taking wheel spin into consideration.

That said, I'm staying with RWD for as long as I drive. I really want another early production 2003 Grand Marquis LS in my driveway, as well as a 1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC at one point.

If a brand new car is a consideration, Holden's Chevrolet-badged Caprice would be my choice (not a fan of new Chryslers). Although the second generation models (WH-WL) had their share of problems, Holden really has made quite a remarkable effort with the third generation WM. Just wish they came with column shifters and a foot-operated parking brake for the additional space over the center console. Then again, one can't have everything.
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Originally Posted By: glumI grew up in NY, and I like being able to steer the car with the gas pedal.[/quote

I grew up in NY too. RWD sucks during winter except when you're 17 years old in a parking lot doing donuts.


Unless you know what you are doing, have proper weight over the axles, and good tires. AWD is not needed by most drivers. I live in upstate NY and have two RWD cars (Ranger and M3) and have no problems.

All this electronic stuff and AWD is reactive, not proactive. It is all guessing with no eyes of the driver. Simply tool, but useful when needed, but not needed most times or even outside of snowy areas.

Basic rules:

1. Have good tires.
2. Know how to correct a slide and feel for grip.
3. If #2 is confusing, take a performance driving course.
 
Originally Posted By: ffracer
Originally Posted By: glumI grew up in NY, and I like being able to steer the car with the gas pedal.

I grew up in NY too. RWD sucks during winter except when you're 17 years old in a parking lot doing donuts. [/quote


Unless you know what you are doing, have proper weight over the axles, and good tires. AWD is not needed by most drivers. I live in upstate NY and have two RWD cars (Ranger and M3) and have no problems.

Basic rules:

1. Have good tires.
2. Know how to correct a slide and feel for grip.
3. If #2 is confusing, take a performance driving course.


Earlier in my driving days I used to put weight over the rear axle, starting with my FWD '90 Integra. Then I figured out it was completely unnecessary. With my snow tires on I had to try with all my might to get that thing to spin, and if I was using the p-brake trying to encourage it the rear would step right back in line as soon as I released the p-brake.

Now that I have RWD cars, I still use snow tires, and have never weighted the rear axle either. My biggest problem in the winter is ground clearance (sport package BMW). At times I could use more "dig" when, for example, starting on an incline in accumulated, heavy (i.e. salted or wet) snow. On the other hand, the most narrow standard tire size, which I use for winter, is 225 so that's not all that narrow. I've never observed a tendancy for this car to want to spin either, and I've made some changes to dial out factory oversteer.

As you said: Good tires are important.
 
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