Why Rear Drive is Better
- Thread starter TallPaul
- Start date
- Status
A great overview about 'wrong wheel drive', but he is hugely generalizing. Some corrections...
"center of gravity" isn't what he thinks. It's actually the polar moment of inertia. But close.
Very few rear wheel drive cars have equal length halfshafts due to packaging concerns. A lot of solid axle RWD cars and trucks also are a bit off centerline. Some powerful RWD cars can get real squirrelly under a heavy foot.
weight shift is subject to suspension design. Anti squat, anti dive, etc. is all available, just expensive.
And my last FWD car, a Neon R/T, would spin so fast you would be surprised. In no way do I consider FWD an advantage in anything but packaging.
"center of gravity" isn't what he thinks. It's actually the polar moment of inertia. But close.
Very few rear wheel drive cars have equal length halfshafts due to packaging concerns. A lot of solid axle RWD cars and trucks also are a bit off centerline. Some powerful RWD cars can get real squirrelly under a heavy foot.
weight shift is subject to suspension design. Anti squat, anti dive, etc. is all available, just expensive.
And my last FWD car, a Neon R/T, would spin so fast you would be surprised. In no way do I consider FWD an advantage in anything but packaging.
In addition to SteveSRT8's comments, I must say those this posting (link) is somewhat overly generalised.
There are lots of pros and cons between FWD vs RWD, and no real conclusions as to which one is superior than others (IMHO, YMMV). There's always some poorly executed RWD and also inferior FWD out in this world, and then there are some carefully executed RWD and/or FWD that works beyond many folks expectations.
And then there's AWD.
Bottomline: I'd take this with a grain of salt, thank you.
Q.
There are lots of pros and cons between FWD vs RWD, and no real conclusions as to which one is superior than others (IMHO, YMMV). There's always some poorly executed RWD and also inferior FWD out in this world, and then there are some carefully executed RWD and/or FWD that works beyond many folks expectations.
And then there's AWD.
Bottomline: I'd take this with a grain of salt, thank you.
Q.
Quote:
...I'm not saying there aren't sophisticated techniques that allow FWD cars to do better. A recent issue of Grassroots Motorsports tested a humble FWD Acura RSX against a classy rear-drive BMW. The Acura actually turned laps a bit more quickly....
...and a few years earlier, a wrong-wheel drive Integra Type R lapped a roadcourse faster than an E30 BMW M3. By the smallest of fractions, but to read that article, the fwd Integra shouldn't have even been close.
As far as torque steer? Some cars manage it better than others. The current Mazda6S and Mazdaspeed 3 have similar horsepower numbers but the 6 manages it's torque steer MUCH better. It's virtually a non-issue in the 6. The 'Speed 3 will have you all over the place sawing at the wheel like a madman to point the car in the right direction. Same manufacturer.
...I'm not saying there aren't sophisticated techniques that allow FWD cars to do better. A recent issue of Grassroots Motorsports tested a humble FWD Acura RSX against a classy rear-drive BMW. The Acura actually turned laps a bit more quickly....
...and a few years earlier, a wrong-wheel drive Integra Type R lapped a roadcourse faster than an E30 BMW M3. By the smallest of fractions, but to read that article, the fwd Integra shouldn't have even been close.
As far as torque steer? Some cars manage it better than others. The current Mazda6S and Mazdaspeed 3 have similar horsepower numbers but the 6 manages it's torque steer MUCH better. It's virtually a non-issue in the 6. The 'Speed 3 will have you all over the place sawing at the wheel like a madman to point the car in the right direction. Same manufacturer.
Personally, I despise FWD cars, and don't ever plan to own another one (first car was a 2000 Hyundai Elantra). Prone to understeer, can't kick the rear end with the throttle in the snow, poor launch traction, and most annoying to me: torque steer.
In my Jeep, if I line up in an empty parking lot in 2wd, take my hands off the wheel and punch it, it goes dead straight (equal length axle shafts). If I punch it and spin 'em up in the snow, it goes straight. Put it in 4wd and punch it in the snow, and the little bit of torque steer from powering the front axle starts to pull it sideways.
In my Jeep, if I line up in an empty parking lot in 2wd, take my hands off the wheel and punch it, it goes dead straight (equal length axle shafts). If I punch it and spin 'em up in the snow, it goes straight. Put it in 4wd and punch it in the snow, and the little bit of torque steer from powering the front axle starts to pull it sideways.
Also, fwd eats up tires, steering and delivering power at the same time. FWD also plows hard in sharp turns under power.
IMHO, and only IMHO, if I had to chose one format and let the other completely disappear from the face of the earth, I would choose RWD.
The primary (note: "primary", not "only") reason FWD is still around is that the majors are irrevocably invested in it. Simply put, it's cheaper for them to build and package.
I do applaud Chrysler for building the 300, the Magnum, the Charger, and the Challenger and I hope the new FIAT overlords don't force them out. (I will use roller-skates before I would buy a FIAT anything.) I'm also encouraged that the "new" Camaro isn't some junky FWD shadow of its former self (like Ford did to the Cougar) and that the new (Holden) Caprice is RWD.
While FWD may be the majority, RWD still has a place and I hope it remains that way.
The primary (note: "primary", not "only") reason FWD is still around is that the majors are irrevocably invested in it. Simply put, it's cheaper for them to build and package.
I do applaud Chrysler for building the 300, the Magnum, the Charger, and the Challenger and I hope the new FIAT overlords don't force them out. (I will use roller-skates before I would buy a FIAT anything.) I'm also encouraged that the "new" Camaro isn't some junky FWD shadow of its former self (like Ford did to the Cougar) and that the new (Holden) Caprice is RWD.
While FWD may be the majority, RWD still has a place and I hope it remains that way.
I love opinions that act as if there is One Global Truth.
I don't know WTH "wrong-wheel drive" denotes, but give me a break. The best vehicle I've ever driven in slippery winter conditions was my GMC Sierra (4WD). Next best--by far was my (otherwise horrible) Honda Civic CRX (FWD). That car was great on snow and ice because it was FWD and weighed about as much as a poodle. The worst vehicles I've ever driven in snow/ice--again, by far--were my RWD Camaros and Trans Am.
I think and hope that someday, all vehicles are AWD, or at least available that way.
I don't know WTH "wrong-wheel drive" denotes, but give me a break. The best vehicle I've ever driven in slippery winter conditions was my GMC Sierra (4WD). Next best--by far was my (otherwise horrible) Honda Civic CRX (FWD). That car was great on snow and ice because it was FWD and weighed about as much as a poodle. The worst vehicles I've ever driven in snow/ice--again, by far--were my RWD Camaros and Trans Am.
I think and hope that someday, all vehicles are AWD, or at least available that way.
FWD is fine.. Most people are bashing it under what would appear to be more extreme situations.
In my 124HP Saturn on my daily commute I couldn't care less if my car was FWD or RWD. Cruising straight down country roads at 60mph.
For a race car, yes, FWD is utter fail.
In my 124HP Saturn on my daily commute I couldn't care less if my car was FWD or RWD. Cruising straight down country roads at 60mph.
For a race car, yes, FWD is utter fail.
Originally Posted By: Quest
In addition to SteveSRT8's comments, I must say those this posting (link) is somewhat overly generalised.
There are lots of pros and cons between FWD vs RWD, and no real conclusions as to which one is superior than others (IMHO, YMMV). There's always some poorly executed RWD and also inferior FWD out in this world, and then there are some carefully executed RWD and/or FWD that works beyond many folks expectations.
And then there's AWD.
Bottomline: I'd take this with a grain of salt, thank you.
Q.
I agree, but its a very SMALL grain of salt. There really aren't many "pros" to FWD except handling in icy conditions and packaging.
As far as AWD, I also think there's a big difference between FWD cars that offer an AWD option (think Ford Escape, RAV4, etc., the old Eagle Talon, Ford 500, etc.) and RWD cars that offer an AWD option (Charger, 300, etc.) Anything AWD with an RWD heritage has some inherent advantages, driveline strength if nothing else IMO. One of my ultimate dream cars would be an AWD Jensen Interceptor. Oh. My. God.
In addition to SteveSRT8's comments, I must say those this posting (link) is somewhat overly generalised.
There are lots of pros and cons between FWD vs RWD, and no real conclusions as to which one is superior than others (IMHO, YMMV). There's always some poorly executed RWD and also inferior FWD out in this world, and then there are some carefully executed RWD and/or FWD that works beyond many folks expectations.
And then there's AWD.
Bottomline: I'd take this with a grain of salt, thank you.
Q.
I agree, but its a very SMALL grain of salt. There really aren't many "pros" to FWD except handling in icy conditions and packaging.
As far as AWD, I also think there's a big difference between FWD cars that offer an AWD option (think Ford Escape, RAV4, etc., the old Eagle Talon, Ford 500, etc.) and RWD cars that offer an AWD option (Charger, 300, etc.) Anything AWD with an RWD heritage has some inherent advantages, driveline strength if nothing else IMO. One of my ultimate dream cars would be an AWD Jensen Interceptor. Oh. My. God.
I read that one awhile ago. I thought it was OK as far as content, but was more directed toward an everyday driver than an enthusiast or someone seeking technical info.
ALL my vehicles are rear drive or 4wd.
I grew up in NY, and I like being able to steer the car with the gas pedal.
I grew up in NY, and I like being able to steer the car with the gas pedal.
Also the article did not mention that when you break traction in a front drive, you also lose your ability to steer.
Front Drive Sucks
Front Drive Sucks
I think the article is basically correct. Other than more compact packaging, slight fuel economy increase and more traction on slippery roads FWD really has all the disadvantages in driving dynamics. FWD cars now are designed to cover for their disadvantages so they are hardly noticable and for the average driver FWD probably is for the best. But for an automotive enthusiast especially in a warm climate RWD is a lot better IMO.
Real drag cars and race are rear weight biased RWD, not FWD or AWD. For a street car my favorite layout is front engine (Front mid-engine)RWD 2-seater. Although, I'll take a 2-dr RWD 4 seater lol. Rear mid-engine is OK but I think it is unnecesary for a street car. I'm not much of a fan of AWD.
Real drag cars and race are rear weight biased RWD, not FWD or AWD. For a street car my favorite layout is front engine (Front mid-engine)RWD 2-seater. Although, I'll take a 2-dr RWD 4 seater lol. Rear mid-engine is OK but I think it is unnecesary for a street car. I'm not much of a fan of AWD.
Seems front drive is more costly to repair driveline (can you even call it a driveline?) components, such as axles, clutch, transmission.
Originally Posted By: rjundi
Hmm...No mention of winter traction.
I've never had a problem with RWD cars with snow tires in winter on ice or snow. RWD without snows is terrible and I think under those conditions FWD has a clear advantage.
The only reason FWD exists is for packaging/costs. While there may be branches to that reason now, no one invented FWD for better winter traction or handling, or any driving dynamic purpose.
Hmm...No mention of winter traction.
I've never had a problem with RWD cars with snow tires in winter on ice or snow. RWD without snows is terrible and I think under those conditions FWD has a clear advantage.
The only reason FWD exists is for packaging/costs. While there may be branches to that reason now, no one invented FWD for better winter traction or handling, or any driving dynamic purpose.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Also the article did not mention that when you break traction in a front drive, you also lose your ability to steer.
Absolutely not true, unless you have no idea how to drive a FWD vehicle in slippery conditions. If you have clue #1 how to drive, FWD can actually be better. The FWD haters just have no idea how to drive them.
Originally Posted By: Rix
There really aren't many "pros" to FWD except handling in icy conditions
That's not the only advantage, but it sure is a HUGE one if you actually have to drive in those conditions...
Originally Posted By: Rix
ALL my vehicles are rear drive or 4wd.
I grew up in NY, and I like being able to steer the car with the gas pedal.
I grew up in NY too. RWD sucks during winter except when you're 17 years old in a parking lot doing donuts.
Also the article did not mention that when you break traction in a front drive, you also lose your ability to steer.
Absolutely not true, unless you have no idea how to drive a FWD vehicle in slippery conditions. If you have clue #1 how to drive, FWD can actually be better. The FWD haters just have no idea how to drive them.
Originally Posted By: Rix
There really aren't many "pros" to FWD except handling in icy conditions
That's not the only advantage, but it sure is a HUGE one if you actually have to drive in those conditions...
Originally Posted By: Rix
ALL my vehicles are rear drive or 4wd.
I grew up in NY, and I like being able to steer the car with the gas pedal.
I grew up in NY too. RWD sucks during winter except when you're 17 years old in a parking lot doing donuts.
Really, more important in deep snow than which wheels drive the vehicle is ground clearance. I recall in the 70s getting hung up because snow was packing under the floor pan. Ever since I got a pickup truck, I have no problem with snow packing up under the floor pan. Also I load the bed with snow and get every bit as good of weight induced traction as a front drive vehicle.
- Status
