Why not 20wt oils in....non-turbo German engines?

[BigJohn]

I am simply, intensely curious.........

Couple of things to set the stage....

Two of my auto's are......

2007 Yaris (College going daughter) (PP 5w20)
2008 Rabbit (College going son) (Castrol 5w40)

I have just finished reading a ton on the Taxi Cab studies and the use of 20wt oils. I also did some Google research on the particulars of Ford and Honda using 20wt oils for the past 10 years.

It would seem, from what I have read and from numerous UOA's on this site involving 20wt oils....that 5w20's and 0w20's are simply outstanding and are proving themselves up into high mileage situations. (One of the craziest is the used fleet pickup that my mother purchased for $500 from a petro company to beat around on her property. Over 300k miles on the little V8, everything original and 20wt oil used the whole time.)

I listed the vehicles I have and the oils I use....and I set the stage with all the 20wt oil info....to ask.....

to ask.......

I'm wondering......

Why in the heck hasn't the German manufacturers followed suit in the recommendation of 20wt oil? My son's Rabbit calls for 5w40 that is 502 rated. That 2.5L engine is a simple, inline 5 cylinder....no turbo.

(By the way, I totally understand why one would want to pour a thicker oil in a turbo.)

I suppose if we were running that Rabbit 120 mph for hours on end on the Autobahn....then I understand a 40wt. But driving here in American where our top speed is supposed to be 75pmh.....Why? Why a 40wt?

Would this engine blow-up or show significant wear with a high quality, synthetic 20wt?

 

[aquariuscsm]

I`d say CAFE.

 

[d00df00d]

We know that German cars are designed to be able to run all day long at top speed. We can be pretty sure this affects their oil choice.

Now, if you're never going to drive it that way, could you drop down to an xw-20 and get away with it? Maybe. It's certainly plausible. But is it a guarantee? No.

On the other hand, it is a guarantee that a factory-certified oil will work just fine no matter how you drive the car.

It's a gamble. Gotta make the call for yourself.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I agree witho your premise. I woud have to say that you have to follow the german car makers recomendations...no matter how arcaic.

 

[HTSS_TR]

I'm having Synpower 5W20 in my '00 MB E430 now while the recommended oil is M1 0W40. It had PP 5W20 and M1 0W20 last year, the engine seems to idle much quieter with thinner oils, it has good power such that the performance did not matter which grade of oil is used.

Once of the reason that I use thinner oil in that car is to quiet down the engine noise at all RPM's, and since most trips that car used for are less than 12-15 miles, so that the oil temperature almost never get to above 90-100 degree C, except when we go to Vegas in summer.

One extra gauge I would like to add to my car(s) is oil temperature gauge, if I know the oil temperature that my cars are subjected to I would be able to choose the correct oil grade for it.

 

[simple_gifts]

Quote:

I`d say CAFE


What was the question.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
We know that German cars are designed to be able to run all day long at top speed.


So are CVPI's ..on 5w-20 conventional.

Quote:
We can be pretty sure this affects their oil choice.


Among other things like longer drains and all kinds of interlocking criteria. They also require synthetics ..which very few domestic cars do.

What you don't see the CVPI doing on 5w-20 conventional is spec'ing 12-18 month drains. You see the non-severe duty being limited to 5000 miles ..maybe 6000 by now.

So ..you want to drive all day at near 100% engine output ..not have to change the oil for a year or more ...and not sludge your engine or wear it out prematurely in the process and manage the gantlet of what it may encounter in the time span ...then you're ante'ing up for a 5w-40 synthetic that can jump through some pretty impressive hoops.

 

[mechanicx]

I think it's a matter of two different design philosophies. Which one is right in America? I have to say the American design philosophy. On the otherhand the European way might be better for their purposes. I don't know what US manufacture recommend for cars they sell in Europe but I would use them if I was there, just like I'd probably follow European manufacture requirements on their cars sold here.

To me 20 wt oil just makes more sense on several counts instead of trying to be a say 0W-40 expensive all conditions oil. That's the thing when you are changing oil at least 2x times a year you can easily go with a 0W-20 in Winter and a 10W30 in summer if you want. I could be wrong but it seems like Euros. are starting to embrace 30W oil more at least for the US.

 

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Among other things like longer drains and all kinds of interlocking criteria. They also require synthetics ..which very few domestic cars do.

What you don't see the CVPI doing on 5w-20 conventional is spec'ing 12-18 month drains. You see the non-severe duty being limited to 5000 miles ..maybe 6000 by now.

So ..you want to drive all day at near 100% engine output ..not have to change the oil for a year or more ...and not sludge your engine or wear it out prematurely in the process and manage the gantlet of what it may encounter in the time span ...then you're ante'ing up for a 5w-40 synthetic that can jump through some pretty impressive hoops.



I agree with you Gary about the drain intervals. My best friend just returned from four years in Germany. One thing he said was....Germans are crazy, environmental about used oil and they absolutely can't understand 5k OCI's.

On the other hand, I just like 5k-6k OCI's, even with synthetics and stout add packs. We generally drive our rigs about 10k-12k miles a year and we change the oil every 6 months.

I don't know if I want to go all the way to a 20wt with the Rabbit, but I am very tempted to give M1 Green Cap 0w30 a try.


.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: BigJohn

I don't know if I want to go all the way to a 20wt with the Rabbit, but I am very tempted to give M1 Green Cap 0w30 a try.

M1 0w-30 is too thin to meet the VW 502 spec. If you want a 0w-30 oil that meets VW 502 spec, use GC.

As for your original question, check out this recent thread that discusses BMW oil requirements, which are loosely based on ACEA A3 spec, similar to the VW spec...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1678960&page=1

 

[Audi Junkie]

I'm using Havoline DS 5w-20 in my Mom's Passat 2.Slo. It just went in, so I have no idea how it runs. Used dino GTX 10w-30 prior and 15w-40 before that.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So are CVPI's ..on 5w-20 conventional.

Those cars run big, understressed, low-revving engines with beastly cooling systems in massive engine bays...


Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Among other things like longer drains and all kinds of interlocking criteria. They also require synthetics ..which very few domestic cars do.

What you don't see the CVPI doing on 5w-20 conventional is spec'ing 12-18 month drains. You see the non-severe duty being limited to 5000 miles ..maybe 6000 by now.

So ..you want to drive all day at near 100% engine output ..not have to change the oil for a year or more ...and not sludge your engine or wear it out prematurely in the process and manage the gantlet of what it may encounter in the time span ...then you're ante'ing up for a 5w-40 synthetic that can jump through some pretty impressive hoops.

Agreed.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So are CVPI's ..on 5w-20 conventional.

Those cars run big, understressed, low-revving engines with beastly cooling systems in massive engine bays...




Yes ..but I think you could do it with most cars marketed here. I doubt a Honda Civic will die an early death running 5w-20 @ 85-90% of it's peak output from dusk til dawn (cue Angry Cockroaches). I don't think that, on average (note important qualification), we really put that much power density into the engine to begin with.

Then again, there is Arcographite that would make highway patrol service duty look like a sight seeing tour.

What would the Teutonic's due to the CVPI. Down size it ..it would be a V12 ..have an eight quart sump ..more techno-bells & whistles than you could shake a stick at ...AND cost about $40k more. It would also up the top speed to 165mph ..and deliver "aplomb" over a crater riddled roadway.

 

[JAG]

To know the answer, the engines' parts' design and dimensions must be known, among other things like expected bulk and local oil temperatures during the range of expected operating conditions. We are unlikely to have that data presented here. Even if we did, anywhere from none to very few members here would be able to do much analysis on it.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I do not see XW20's are answering any need or solving any problem for the owner. It is purely CAFE even if it is ok it is not being recommended because it is the best.

First clearances have not changed much or at all in the last 30 year's what has changed is tolerance stacking and bearing matrices. The new Honda Lead Bearing Matrices that they discovered is what made 5W20 really possable. It is tougher, more resistant and is more resistant to embedding. Someone posted this information years ago when 5W20 first came on the scene big again and it was a huge order of magnitude stronger in every way!Keep in mind that long ago in the USA 20W20 and 5W20 where common. In fact the first Mobil-1 synthetic oil was a 5W20 product. Adam Opel GM's german arm had huge issues with engine sludging with 20W20 and high speed autobahn driving it was called "Black Death"!

Now if things have not changed since I was a young aprentice in Germany the norm for most companies was 25-35psi at idle and 10PSI per 1000 RPM's usually bypassing at around 100-150psi. Generally the faster you spin a crankshaft and the wider the crankshaft journals the more heat that is generated at the mains and this effects the oil drastically when it gets their. So you calculate based on that not just ambient temp. outside. So in a country where little 1.5liter engines are propelling cars at 150MPH or faster on a regular basis a 5W40 or 0W40 makes sense. In the USA few cars turn more then 3300RPMS doing the legal speed limit on the HWY so you can get away with a lot less HTHS and lower cST oils.

Also the material that the bearings are made from has a huge impact as does the matric's used to combine the materials. You can get alloys to form more then one way with regards to crystal structure.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I have published specifications on engines clearances covering a 30+ year time frame and the clearance today are not any tighter then they where before!At least not on Toyota Engines!The main difference is that 30 years ago they could seldom machine the part to the specifications outlined by the engineer on a regular basis. So eventhough the specifactions for clearances have not changed much or at all the manufactures ability to get most of the parts to the level called for by the engineer has improved. Also their is less tolerance stacking because more is down in fixed jigs or in one machine. Prior to CNC machines often you might have a part go on 20 different machines that each had cams and such that programed them with what to do and they would be calibrated at the start of the day not before each part or after each tool change etc......Also if a part needs a jig more operations are now being down in that one jig as opposed to a part having to be remounted in a different jig for each operation.....It all add's up to engines and engine parts that are far closer to what the blue prints is asking for!

 

[mechanicx]

I don't know, you can get Motorcraft 5W20 and others still for under $2.20 a qt, and it makes for quiet tappets in some cold starts. Plus the 5W20 seems to be working in the Summer in S. Florida and out West. So I think it's been good for something.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JAG
To know the answer, the engines' parts' design and dimensions must be known, among other things like expected bulk and local oil temperatures during the range of expected operating conditions. We are unlikely to have that data presented here. Even if we did, anywhere from none to very few members here would be able to do much analysis on it.

Indeed.

This should be stickied.

 

[JohnBrowning]

It is funny too because some manufactures embrace new technology and new tooling like Audi and Toyota while GM is useing some machines that look like they are left over from WWII at their Tonawanda engine plant or Flints Engine plant etc.......I have watched GM vibrate blocks with what looked to be small bolders to clean up the casting flash. The honing machine was filthy as was most of the area covered with dust,dirt,powdered abrasives and coolant. The Buick 3.8 liter plant had some of the most jerry riged machines I have seen. The reason GM is getting rid of it was because they did not want to retool for it. On the other hand if you watch an Audi engine being manufactured it is almost like a clean room environment same thing goes for Ferrari they have tree's and plants and water falls in their factory and it is very very clean!

So a lot has to do with how the engine is designed, how it was validated and the materials and methods used in the production of the engine!

 

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: BigJohn

I don't know if I want to go all the way to a 20wt with the Rabbit, but I am very tempted to give M1 Green Cap 0w30 a try.

M1 0w-30 is too thin to meet the VW 502 spec. If you want a 0w-30 oil that meets VW 502 spec, use GC.

As for your original question, check out this recent thread that discusses BMW oil requirements, which are loosely based on ACEA A3 spec, similar to the VW spec...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1678960&page=1



Everyone hold on to your pants.....brace yourself.......I am about to speak heresy.....

I couldn't give a flip about 502 spec.....especially when I am out of warranty.

If I ever feel I need to run a 5w40 again, it will be Rotella T6.

Now....I am sure that an oil with 502 spec guarantees an oil is at a certain level. A level that is required for 10k OCI's and high rev'ing, long highway runs, etc...etc....

I will go back to my original question. Would anyone dare ever run a 20wt in a non-turbo, Germany engine? A couple of you have replied, YES.

By the way, I was talking to my buddy tonight (the guy that lived in Germany for four years). I didn't know this, but from the day they purchased their 2003 Passat (1.8L Turbo), it has had a steady diet of Jiffy Lube 5w30 dino!!!!! Today, the car is running like a horse and it has 140,000 miles on it. When I asked him about 502 spec....he didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

That story, sort of begs the question....how many VW owners out there are feeding their cars a steady diet of Jiffy Lube or Pep Boys or Valvoline dino in a 5w30 or 5w20?????