Why no 10w30

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Originally Posted By: HammerHead0313
I tested the theory and proved the tolerance between internal engine components and your engine oil selection is true. Tighter the tolerance, thinner the oil. Test vehicle was a 2013 Dodge Ram RCSB 5.7, manufacturer recommended 5w20 switched to 5w30 weight oil. While canyon racing in north Georgia mountains my oil sump temperatures were 12-16 degrees hotter than the 5w20 running the thicker 5w30. Why? Because internal engine components are cooled by oil directly and cooled by coolant indirectly. Thinner oils flow better than thick oil's pulling more heat from Internal engine components and lubricate more effectively. Thicker oil's flow slower through internal engine components pulling less heat from the engine, Drive up bearing temperatures and the oil meets or exceeds it thermal break down point. Oil in these areas of the engine can be 90 degrees hotter than the oil sump temperatures. As we all know oil is application specific, and the clearances between internal engine components is something that should be considered when making your oil selection.


You’re missing the point. Engines can operate on 0w-20 all the way to 20w-50 and the grades between. For the daily driver 0w-20 provides adequate protection and allows OEM to claim better mpg. Take that same engine and canyon race it with 0w-20 and you may have some bearing issues once the oil gets hot.

Yes 5w-30 will run hotter. It is actually heated by friction as it is pumped through the bearings. This is where the mpg gains of thinner oil come from. They have less frictional pumping losses through the bearings and other parts. it also picks up heat from the pistons and whatnot. The key here is that even though the 5w-30 was hotter, it was still thicker in the bearings and other parts of the engine than the 0w-20. That gives a thicker oil wedge for the bearings to float on as you’re flogging the engine down the canyon.

Another example. The Ford Mustang with the Coyote 5.0 V8 calls for 0w-20 for everyday use. However if you get the track pack, 5w-50 is recommended. Same engine, 2 different recommended oil grades based on operating conditions.
 
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: mx5miata
newer engines with tighter tolerances and fuel economy also easy flow at cold temp starts. I am pretty sure Chevy and Ford turbocharged cars use 5w30


Your statement about tolerances is wrong. This has been parroted on the internet for ages and it is wrong. Engines can operate on a broad range of grades. The engine that calls for 0w-20 in America is often run with 5w-30 or 10w-40 in Europe.



Perhaps the European thinking is obsolete. Even some are beginning to change to 0-20. For me I have put about 450K on 0-20 with great results in Ford engines.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: mx5miata
newer engines with tighter tolerances and fuel economy also easy flow at cold temp starts. I am pretty sure Chevy and Ford turbocharged cars use 5w30


Your statement about tolerances is wrong. This has been parroted on the internet for ages and it is wrong. Engines can operate on a broad range of grades. The engine that calls for 0w-20 in America is often run with 5w-30 or 10w-40 in Europe.



Perhaps the European thinking is obsolete. Even some are beginning to change to 0-20. For me I have put about 450K on 0-20 with great results in Ford engines.


Did you even read my last post? Why do I bother...?
 
Originally Posted By: mx5miata
glad the tolerance issue was clarified. I take it my Scion was intended for economy, I'll stick with the 0w20 and get my 38-41mpg.


Clearances. Tolerances are the allowed deviation in the Machine work. I would guess the tolerances are less due to the longer emission warranty laws.
 
You had a great post there SilverFusion2010. The longer one I am talking about. That was very, very well stated.
 
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: HammerHead0313
I tested the theory and proved the tolerance between internal engine components and your engine oil selection is true. Tighter the tolerance, thinner the oil. Test vehicle was a 2013 Dodge Ram RCSB 5.7, manufacturer recommended 5w20 switched to 5w30 weight oil. While canyon racing in north Georgia mountains my oil sump temperatures were 12-16 degrees hotter than the 5w20 running the thicker 5w30. Why? Because internal engine components are cooled by oil directly and cooled by coolant indirectly. Thinner oils flow better than thick oil's pulling more heat from Internal engine components and lubricate more effectively. Thicker oil's flow slower through internal engine components pulling less heat from the engine, Drive up bearing temperatures and the oil meets or exceeds it thermal break down point. Oil in these areas of the engine can be 90 degrees hotter than the oil sump temperatures. As we all know oil is application specific, and the clearances between internal engine components is something that should be considered when making your oil selection.


You’re missing the point. Engines can operate on 0w-20 all the way to 20w-50 and the grades between. For the daily driver 0w-20 provides adequate protection and allows OEM to claim better mpg. Take that same engine and canyon race it with 0w-20 and you may have some bearing issues once the oil gets hot.

Yes 5w-30 will run hotter. It is actually heated by friction as it is pumped through the bearings. This is where the mpg gains of thinner oil come from. They have less frictional pumping losses through the bearings and other parts. it also picks up heat from the pistons and whatnot. The key here is that even though the 5w-30 was hotter, it was still thicker in the bearings and other parts of the engine than the 0w-20. That gives a thicker oil wedge for the bearings to float on as you’re flogging the engine down the canyon.

Another example. The Ford Mustang with the Coyote 5.0 V8 calls for 0w-20 for everyday use. However if you get the track pack, 5w-50 is recommended. Same engine, 2 different recommended oil grades based on operating conditions.




Yep. This comment by Silver Fusion should be post of the day.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Patman
I've been saying this on here for years now but 10w30 is obsolete, at least in terms of synthetics, because a 5w30 can do everything the 10w30 can do, with the added benefit of better flow on cold starts.
What about for conventional? When I asked around, people thought it a bad idea for me to run extended OCI's on my 5S-FE, due to its reputation as a sludger. I've proven that it does have a fair amount of varnish. But running synthetic for just 5k seems... wrong... in an economy motor. So I just run conventional 5W30. Which I doubt is being taxed in any way.


That's why I say for synthetics, I feel 10w30 is obsolete. With conventional, it's a slightly different story, however it's getting to the point where there really isn't going to be any conventional oil anymore.

I know that on paper the 10w30 synthetics often have slightly better technical data than their 5w30 versions, but in the real world this isn't really translating to much. People are still getting long life out of their engines running 5w30 (and 5w20 for that matter)
 
Originally Posted By: SR5

Yeah, but you come from Canada, and I come from Australia. I think local climate should be taken into account.

In almost all of Australia you can run 20W50 year round, with a few exceptional places using 15W40 as a winter grade.

To me 5W30 and 10W30 are practically identical in cold starting performance. But given the same base stock, same add pack, same VII chemistry, then the 10W30 will always give me lower Noack volatility and better shear stability compared to the equivalently formulated 5W30.

To me going to a 5W30 would be giving away stuff I want for stuff I don't need. A poor bargain in my climate, but a good bargain in your climate.


Thank you, I agree completely. One size does not fit all, well. I have advocated before for:

0-20 and 5-20 for northern tier of USA + Canada
5-30 for mid tier of USA
10-30 for southern USA

They would all fit and perform well, and is easy to understand.
 
Originally Posted By: Patman
I've been saying this on here for years now but 10w30 is obsolete, at least in terms of synthetics, because a 5w30 can do everything the 10w30 can do, with the added benefit of better flow on cold starts.
10w-30 syns can basically be monogrades with those advantages. 0w-30 is going to win in the cold. It seems 5w-30 is the useless obsolete syn grade that doesn't do anything best.
 
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Originally Posted By: Yah-Tah-Hey
What's wrong with just using 0W-30?


You can, but it costs more.
 
Originally Posted By: talest
Originally Posted By: Yah-Tah-Hey
What's wrong with just using 0W-30?


You can, but it costs more.
Walmart charges the same price.
 
The real difference between 0w30, 5w30 and 10w30 will be seen in temps below 0*F. That's why 5w30 has appeared as the "one size fits all" viscosity -- it works well in a very wide range of ambient temperatures and is not as expensive as the 0w# oils.
 
Originally Posted By: Yah-Tah-Hey
What's wrong with just using 0W-30?


All things held equal, a 0W-30 will be less shear-stable, provide less film-thickness, and have a higher NOACK. This is because it is comprised of a lighter base-oil (for cold performance) with more VII (to get it to a 30-weight at 100C). However, there are still some fantastic 0W-30s. Castrol's is one of them (in my opinion). Rather than use a lighter base oil + lots of VII, it uses a decent amount of PAO (which has superior cold-performance for a given viscosity). As a result, it has shown to be very shear stable with a low NOACK (in the 8s).
 
Originally Posted By: Yah-Tah-Hey
What's wrong with just using 0W-30?


All the downsides inherited by qualifying for 0W, of course.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
10w-30 syns can basically be monogrades with those advantages. 0w-30 is going to win in the cold. It seems 5w-30 is the useless obsolete syn grade that doesn't do anything best.

You won't find any A5/B5 10w-30 or 0w-30 options in North America. Also, 5w-30 HDEOs are beginning to come back.
 
In my Jeep 4.0 there is a noticeable difference. I tried 5w30 (synthetic) for the winter and will never use it again. Engine made a lot more noise. And in my diesels, of course I would never even consider such a thing. 10w30 is fine though.

Recently bought a water pump with a Chinese B&S clone 2.5hp engine. Very surprised (and happy) to see the American company that wrote the manual calls for 10w30 and not straight 30 or 5w30. That's what I would use regardless of what the manual says...
 
There are plenty of suitable 5w-30 oils for diesels of various sorts, including A3/B4, C3/dexos2, and HDEO. Do note that all three of these will be thicker at operating temperatures than an ILSAC 10w-30.
 
M1 10W30 is a great oil !! ... I run it in the summer (heck could run it all year long) - great NOACK spec for GDI and interestingly enough on the thinner side for a 30W (versus M1 5W30 - go figure ?)
 
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