Why is shorting/derivatives allowed in the Market?

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Why are things like shorting, derivatives and buying on margin and such allowed in the market?

Is it just more ways dreamed up to fuel our greed?

What happened to investing money for the long haul?....putting faith in a company and investing in it.

This is a terrible gamble.
 
Shorting is actually a useful tool to keep unrealistic price bubbles from forming (due to over-hyped stocks), buying on margin is basically gambling (buying stock w/money you don't have/borrowing from your broker), derivatives are basically PURE EVIL & what caused a good bit of the financial crisis in the first place! If you are young enough to still be working, stocks should have a place in your portfolio (for example my current work 401K is all US stocks, just got a statement that showed a decent 11% increase last qtr.)-but I wouldn't put all my "eggs in one basket", NO WAY!
 
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Why are things like shorting, derivatives and buying on margin and such allowed in the market?


This is a terrible gamble.


Why assume shorting and all derivatives are bad? In your opinion, you think such things are evil and bad, but this does not make it so. Sure naked shorting (illegal) serves no purpose, people with no money buying on margin (not allowed in IRA's and who is giving the credit etc) and secret derivatives (can individual investors participate?) are lightning rods for regulators, but it's almost like you want to make legitimate trading methods illegal because you don't understand them.

Make your case for each method - if you are calling for outlawing everything except long buying, then give us detailed reasons.

Start with short selling.

http://www.investorguide.com/igu-article-827-stock-strategies-short-selling.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/business/28stra.html

http://www.contracts-for-difference.com/Evil-shorting.html

BTW - I'm for regulation, orderly markets and some level of controls (such as the old uptick rule for example)
 
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
derivatives are basically PURE EVIL & what caused a good bit of the financial crisis


Please tell us in detail why all derivatives are "PURE EVIL"? All options are evil? Wow.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Why not ask the Rothschilds?


Options, shorts, and margins are peanuts to international bank owners. They can create money out of thin air! The best way to rob a bank and it's depositors is to own the bank.
 
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‎"We view them as time bombs, both for the parties that deal in them and the economic system ... Essentially, these instruments call for money to change hands at some future date, with the amount to be determined by one or more reference it...ems, such as interest rates, stock prices or currency values ... Unless derivatives contracts are collateralized or guaranteed, their ultimate value also depends on the creditworthiness of the counterparties to them. In the meantime, though, before a contract is settled, the counterparties record profits and losses - often huge in amount - in their current earnings statements without so much as a penny changing hands.

Errors will usually be honest, reflecting only the human tendency to take an optimistic view of one's commitments. But the parties to derivatives also have enormous incentives to cheat in accounting for them. Those who trade derivatives are usually paid (in whole or part) on 'earnings' calculated by mark-to-market accounting. But often there is no real market ... and "mark-to-model" is utilized. This substitution can bring on large-scale mischief. As a general rule, contracts involving multiple reference items and distant settlement dates increase the opportunities for counterparties to use fanciful assumptions ... two parties to the contract might well use differing models allowing both to show substantial profits for many years. In extreme cases, mark-to-model degenerates into what I would call mark-to-myth ... Both internal and outside auditors review the numbers, but that's no easy job. For example, General Re Securities at year-end (after ten months of winding down its operation) had 14,384 contracts outstanding, involving 672 counterparties around the world. Each contract had a plus or minus value derived from one or more reference items, including some of mind-boggling complexity. Valuing a portfolio like that, expert auditors could easily and honestly have widely varying opinions.

The valuation problem is far from academic: In recent years, some huge-scale frauds and near-frauds have been facilitated by derivatives trades. In the energy and electric utility sectors, for example, companies used derivatives and trading activities to report great 'earnings' - until the roof fell in when they actually tried to convert the derivatives-related receivables on their balance sheets into cash. 'Mark-to-market' then turned out to be 'mark-to-myth'.

I can assure you marking errors in the derivatives business have not been symmetrical. Almost invariably, they have favored either the trader who was eyeing a multi-million dollar bonus or the CEO who wanted to report impressive "earnings" (or both). The bonuses were paid, and the CEO profited from his options. Only much later did shareholders learn that the reported earnings were a sham.

The derivatives genie is now well out of the bottle, and these instruments will almost certainly multiply in variety and number until some event makes their toxicity clear. Knowledge of how dangerous they are has already permeated the electricity and gas businesses, in which the eruption of major troubles caused the use of derivatives to diminish dramatically. Elsewhere, however, the derivatives business continues to expand unchecked. Central banks and governments have so far found no effective way to control, or even monitor, the risks posed by these contracts."

- Warren Buffet, annual letter to shareholders, March 2003.
 
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BTW - I'm for regulation, orderly markets and some level of controls (such as the old uptick rule for example)


Well that's good to know. Derivatives overall I think do more harm than good.
 
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Not sure what that has to do with the small guy buying puts and calls
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USA has some of the hardest working and laziest people in the world too. Nothing to do with shorting/derivatives!

You guys are just hacking and slashing - if you don't like "derivatives" - tell me which ones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo


You guys are just hacking and slashing - if you don't like "derivatives" - tell me which ones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


How about all of them surrounding the mortgage industry, such as credit default swaps! That sure worked, considering there's hundreds of trillions in the system that, if it collapsed, there wouldn't be a snow ball's chance in [censored] they could ever be paid out upon default.

Because of them, the government CAN NOT (or at least they're trying with everything they got) to keep the banks afloat, because of they go under, there entire derivatives market will create collapse that would make 1929 look like utopia.
 
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Quick scan, and these "insurance products" outstanding are about 6-7 times the world GDP.

That's nonsensical.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Quick scan, and these "insurance products" outstanding are about 6-7 times the world GDP.

That's nonsensical.


World GDP is is 60 trillion; the entire derivatives market is like 600 trillion or more.

When us peasants write a check or sell something, it better clear. When wall street does the same thing, they don't even need to have the money to back it up! That's what a CDS is. It's an insurance contract with no requirement to back it up. When they fail though, the government comes in to bail them out. And there in lies the problem. Wall Street IS THE GOVERNMENT.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Shannow said:
When they fail though, the government comes in to bail them out. And there in lies the problem. Wall Street IS THE GOVERNMENT.


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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
How about all of them surrounding the mortgage industry, such as credit default swaps!


Well there you go. I totally agree. Besides I could never have got any of that action no matter how greedy I felt at the moment.

Here's my rule of thumb - if the average investor with say $100,000-$500,000 can't participate - RUN AWAY!! If the banks or whomever can't do it in public - then well maybe it should be illegal. Hidden bundling of mortgages should not be confused with stock options, selling short, etc.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Hidden bundling of mortgages should not be confused with stock options, selling short, etc.


That I agree with. It's the rampant corruption surrounding the big wall street banks and the mind bogglingly complex derivative securities they create and sell with no regulation that forces them to actually back them up, that is wrong.
 
Shorting definitely has a real life use if done right (although many are just gambling):

Say you are given a stock grant that will vest in 2 years for your job well done, and the stock price is very high right now that you want to cash out to buy a car or pay off your student loan. You can short the market in the same amount so no matter how high or low the market goes, they'll cancel out each other.

Or say you have some stock option to buy some shares at last year's price, but you cannot exercise these options until next year, the stock is high right now (you think) and you don't want to take a chance till next year. You can short the stock by the same amount to "cash out" right now.
 
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