Why is paper better

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I have several vacuum guages, I may install one just before the throttlebody in the TL and run it through normal driving and WOT with the stock airfilter and no airfilter. My guess is I'm not going to see a measurable difference.


You'll need gauges that read inches of W.C. to see anything. I think you'll see 27" of W.C. works out to 2" HG (though there's some temp compensation factor if you're really drawing Mercury) ...and I don't think you're going to see that much CFM ..but you might.

 

[Jason2007]

The benefit I am getting is that I dont have to spend money to replace a paper filter and it is not taking up space in a landfill. You talk about paper studies, they arent worth the ink to print it up. Have you ever seen any proof of an engine grinding to a hault because of an air filter? The answer is no. If you choose to use a paper filter, that is your choice. I choose to use real world facts to back up why I use what I use. In my 15 years of using an oiled filter, even on a 10 sec street 5.0 Mustang, there is never a trace of abnormal wear, period. And, before you pull out the old "well the oil will ruin the mass air meter" statement, if people would oil them properly then there would be no problems. Its not the filters fault that people can't follow simple instructions. People wont spend money on a lifetime filter, but they will spend $$$ to have their oil analyzed?

 

[punisher]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
And, before you pull out the old "well the oil will ruin the mass air meter" statement, if people would oil them properly then there would be no problems. Its not the filters fault that people can't follow simple instructions.


Then there are a lot of Mustang owners that "can't follow simple instructions". As soon as I got an RO for a "Ck engine light" on a Mustang, I would make a bet with my helper whether there was a K&N sticker somewhere on the car. Lean codes plus a K&N sticker equals MAF problem.

Thats a problem. Oil a filter too much it messes with your MAF, don't oil it enough and it kills whatever limited filtering ability the filter has.

As far as filtering ability, take a look at a K&N equipped F350 diesel used on the farm and get back to me on filtering ability. As long as you don't rely on K&Ns to filter actual particulates, they work great. They do keep mice, rats, squirrels, and acorns out of the intake though, so that's a good thing.

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
The benefit I am getting is that I dont have to spend money to replace a paper filter and it is not taking up space in a landfill. You talk about paper studies, they arent worth the ink to print it up. Have you ever seen any proof of an engine grinding to a hault because of an air filter? The answer is no. If you choose to use a paper filter, that is your choice. I choose to use real world facts to back up why I use what I use. In my 15 years of using an oiled filter, even on a 10 sec street 5.0 Mustang, there is never a trace of abnormal wear, period. And, before you pull out the old "well the oil will ruin the mass air meter" statement, if people would oil them properly then there would be no problems. Its not the filters fault that people can't follow simple instructions. People wont spend money on a lifetime filter, but they will spend $$$ to have their oil analyzed?


This pretty much sums up how I feel. Saved me a good deal of typing, thanks.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
The benefit I am getting is that I dont have to spend money to replace a paper filter and it is not taking up space in a landfill. You talk about paper studies, they arent worth the ink to print it up. Have you ever seen any proof of an engine grinding to a hault because of an air filter? The answer is no. If you choose to use a paper filter, that is your choice. I choose to use real world facts to back up why I use what I use. In my 15 years of using an oiled filter, even on a 10 sec street 5.0 Mustang, there is never a trace of abnormal wear, period. And, before you pull out the old "well the oil will ruin the mass air meter" statement, if people would oil them properly then there would be no problems. Its not the filters fault that people can't follow simple instructions. People wont spend money on a lifetime filter, but they will spend $$$ to have their oil analyzed?


Not sure where the 10 second Mustang fits into this but I have a bottom 10 second street car and it does show wear from dust as I've stated 3 times. I personally have never had problems with the K&N oil hurting my MAF but I don't reoil, I replace.

Again, you go to the extremes to try and prove your point but it doesn't work. No engine is going to come to a grinding halt even without a filter. However, it will cause more top end cylinder and ring wear. It's proven, the info is out there just do your research.

What performance benefits do you think you're getting over a paper filter on a stock daily driver street car? $40 plus oil and time or $10 a piece of paper every 2-3 years? You're not saving money on a lifetime filter unless you're getting a premium filter like I am. By the time you hit the 100,000 mile life expectancy of the lifetime filter the cost is within a few percent of one another. And saving the landfill, come on, it's a paper element with a little rubber. Judging by the way it disintegrates in 50,000 miles I doubt it's a major issue in a landfill.

Lastly, if any of the claims were true, they would be used by OEM. Better fuel economy in a FI car is a myth. If a manufacturer could squeeze another .5mph by using a K&N, they would. If they could gain 5hp, they would use it. But what it comes down to is they have to warranty these engines. The OEM filter on my car has a fine oiled cloth like material on one side and a paper element on the other side. It seems like they put a pretty high priority on air filtration. There's no way it's cheaper than a K&N.

 

[bigmike]

100,000 mile lift expectancy?!

Are you kidding?

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
100,000 mile lift expectancy?!

Are you kidding?


Care to elaborate?

 

[Jason2007]

These filters are guarnteed to last 1,000,000 miles. You are gonna try and sell a story that inside an engine, that has explosions going on, that some microsopic dirt is going to do harm? I have never claimed that you will get more HP or MPG from a lifetime filter. I have only claimed facts about them. They never need to be replaced. Saves money and space in a landfill. My GF's Cavalier has 90k on it and for 75k has had a lifetime filter. Never uses a drop of oil and still brings in over 30+MPG on the highway. Seems like my $3.00 AirHog is doing just fine and saving me $$$ in the process. The fact is you dont like them, so you are gonna spin it as it will do harm to justify your dislike. Does a paper filter better, perhaps. But, it is not enough to ever, ever do any harm.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
You are gonna try and sell a story that inside an engine, that has explosions going on, that some microsopic dirt is going to do harm?



Wow.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
These filters are guarnteed to last 1,000,000 miles. You are gonna try and sell a story that inside an engine, that has explosions going on, that some microsopic dirt is going to do harm? I have never claimed that you will get more HP or MPG from a lifetime filter. I have only claimed facts about them. They never need to be replaced. Saves money and space in a landfill. My GF's Cavalier has 90k on it and for 75k has had a lifetime filter. Never uses a drop of oil and still brings in over 30+MPG on the highway. Seems like my $3.00 AirHog is doing just fine and saving me $$$ in the process. The fact is you dont like them, so you are gonna spin it as it will do harm to justify your dislike. Does a paper filter better, perhaps. But, it is not enough to ever, ever do any harm.


As it ages filtration gets even worse. Most people agree that 100,000 is the limit of useful service.

So your Airhog was $3 brand new?

The only spin going on is by you. Paper is proven to filter better time and time again both by filtration tests and by UOAs yet you say "perhaps" it filters better. Go ahead and believe what you want but don't state your opinion as fact. I have seen with my own eyes the damage done. I have seen studies on it. There's a member on here that had fleet failures at very low miles, in the range of 40,000 miles operated in very dusty conditions traced back to inferior filtration. Because you get 70,000 miles out of an engine on a K&N proves nothing. That does not give you the right to say they don't affect engine life when it's proven otherwise.

I'm a K&N user so it's not like I'm basing this on heresay. But it only because there is no paper airfilter that will flow enough air and fit under the hood.

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: bigmike
100,000 mile lift expectancy?!

Are you kidding?


Care to elaborate?


I was kind of hoping you were going to.

 

[bigmike]

Maybe I just had the miracles of K&N or something. Maybe I am the statistical anomaly. Who knows? I sold my last truck with a K&N that had 202,000 miles and it looked like the day I bought it. I have purchased many K&Ns over the last 16 years. Never a problem, never a mention of oil on the MAF, never an engine oil issue, never had an engine failure. Go figure.

I've had great results. My grandfather got me started on K&Ns when he used them in tractors. I guess I'm biased.

Do I think paper is better at filtration - probably so. I think people purchase K&N filters for other reasons.

 

[Jason2007]

My 2 AirHogs were $3.00 after rebate. I have faith that any of my vehicles will serve me just fine with them in.

 

[Jason2007]

And how I am spinning anything? It is a fact that these filters are a lifetime filter. They do end up saving you money by not having to replace and they do save landfill space. No spinning here, no Kool-Aid drinking going on. It is the same debate over dino oil or some uber-expensive synthetic. You will get just as much life out of your car using SuperTech oil and Fram Filters as you will Amsoil/Mobil 1 & some expensive filter.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
And how I am spinning anything? It is a fact that these filters are a lifetime filter. They do end up saving you money by not having to replace and they do save landfill space. No spinning here, no Kool-Aid drinking going on. It is the same debate over dino oil or some uber-expensive synthetic. You will get just as much life out of your car using SuperTech oil and Fram Filters as you will Amsoil/Mobil 1 & some expensive filter.


Really? You have proof that an engine will go the same distance with dino and syn? Another broad generalization. What about super cold climates? What about racing? What about extended intervals? I wish I could've run into you sooner so I could've saved all this money on oil and filters.

Again, the difference in filter cost is pennies and landfill space is a moot point in something that will biodegrade in months.

Lifetime is relative. I hate to break it to you, "lifetime" filters do need replacing, just not as often.

Again, you choose to ignore the facts but the studies of filtration vs engine wear are out there and have been for many, many years.

 

[Jason2007]

The proof is out there in front of your eyes everyday. The majority of people take their cars to Jiffy Lube, etc and do not care about oil changes, yet all these 20+ year old vehicles are still out there running everyday. I never brought up a racing situation, but since you did I will address that. Id say that atleast 99% of any race cars feature an oiled air filter.

I have been around more race cars than I care to remember and I have never seen one still use a paper air filter. You use whatever filter you want, I will use what I want. But you come across as insulting that people would use a filter that is oiled. This place was so much better several years ago before all these so-called "experts" arrived.

 

[Colt45ws]

Yeah, and they also mosquito fog like a mother [censored] and sound like a 70 year old tractor running down the road.

 

[chambers]

Well I think K&N were originally designed for racing applications for that little bit of extra power from increased airflow. There are UOA's w/ good silicon #'s using almost every kind of filter out there, but that doesn't mean they are all equal. The results depend on the application b/c you can't compare a street car running a K&N to an SUV/truck that is regularly driven in the dusty desert running paper.

Many diesel truck owners will warn that w/ the high airflow requirements of their engines oiled guaze doesn't provide sufficient filtration. There are links in the forums to ISO 5011 test comparing K&N to paper and other filters if you're willing to look. K&N isn't the worst, but they're not the best either. The best way to really know if your filter is doing it's job in your application is to have a couple UOA's done and see if they show acceptable silicon #'s.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
The proof is out there in front of your eyes everyday. The majority of people take their cars to Jiffy Lube, etc and do not care about oil changes, yet all these 20+ year old vehicles are still out there running everyday. I never brought up a racing situation, but since you did I will address that. Id say that atleast 99% of any race cars feature an oiled air filter.

I have been around more race cars than I care to remember and I have never seen one still use a paper air filter. You use whatever filter you want, I will use what I want. But you come across as insulting that people would use a filter that is oiled. This place was so much better several years ago before all these so-called "experts" arrived.


Do you bother reading? From the looks of it you read the first line and make a reply. Here it goes again, I RUN A K&N ON MY 600RWHP GN. There, see it? Back to one of my first posts, it's a tradeoff. I don't know how many times I've stated this. On a race car it's worth the tradeoff and it's not likely there is a paper filter that will flow enough air that will fit under the hood. There's the matter of turbo lag and increased pressure ratios along with the loss of hp. But on a daily driver that you plan on keeping forever the tradeoff is not worth the pennies that you might save on a K&N.

I ask you again to quit ignoring the inconvienent part of my posts and do some reasearch on air filtration and engine longevity.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
You are gonna try and sell a story that inside an engine, that has explosions going on, that some microsopic dirt is going to do harm? I


Well, first off ..they're ideally not explosions ..they're flashes. Explosions might be for diesels. Smooth flame front ...again, ideally.

..but, YES, airborne abrasives sand blast your air horn, intake, valves ...pistons ..

You will tire an engine MUCH quicker with poor air filtration than you will with being negligent on many other maintenance items.