I have a AFE drop-in filter but I read on this site that paper filters are better.Why?Joe
Why is paper better
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They are finer and trap more, smaller particles. Also no oil to mess up your MAF sensor.
AFE Pro-Dry does not need oil and it filters very good according to at least one UOA. It costs more than paper filter but it is supposed to be lifetime filter with periodic cleaning.
The broad consensus on the forum is that an good air filter and preventing leaks around the air filter is more important to keeping the oil clean than the oil filter. There is a general consensus that the oil impregnated cloth or sponge air filters do not filter as well as the fiber filter media air filters. So if you want clean oil and longer engine life use the fiber media filters. How much longer engine life is up for debate and would be expensive and difficult to actually test. There is a benefit to a less restrictive air filter being able to provide more air to the engine and thus more power, but I see this being applicable only under wide open throttle conditions. Power to a gasoline engine (not diesel) is controlled my controlling the amount of air that flow into the engine. This is done in most gasoline engines by the throttle plate. The engine computer injects the appropriate amount of fuel for the given air flow. If the a given air filter is more restrictive to air flow than another, it just means the throttle plate is opened a little further to keep the net resistance to air flow the same to generate the same amount of power. Only when wide open throttle considerations exist will you see an more power and better fuel economy than a less restrictive paper air filter. So if you drive a lot at wide open throttle, ie racing, it may make sense to use a K&N type air filter. If you drive a normal speeds like most people do, cleaner oil is probably more of a benefit.
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Well, if you cleaned it as prescribed (not too often) it was probably no trouble. I didn't get higher (or inordinately high) silicon readings with a K&N until around the 6th cleaning. That would be about 200k if done when recommended. Mine was exposed so it got caked rather quickly. So it may not have leaked, but would be plugged without the advantage of an air box that would have velocity reducing chambers to have stuff just drop out.
Originally Posted By: hofcat
The broad consensus on the forum is that an good air filter and preventing leaks around the air filter is more important to keeping the oil clean than the oil filter. There is a general consensus that the oil impregnated cloth or sponge air filters do not filter as well as the fiber filter media air filters. So if you want clean oil and longer engine life use the fiber media filters. How much longer engine life is up for debate and would be expensive and difficult to actually test. There is a benefit to a less restrictive air filter being able to provide more air to the engine and thus more power, but I see this being applicable only under wide open throttle conditions. Power to a gasoline engine (not diesel) is controlled my controlling the amount of air that flow into the engine. This is done in most gasoline engines by the throttle plate. The engine computer injects the appropriate amount of fuel for the given air flow. If the a given air filter is more restrictive to air flow than another, it just means the throttle plate is opened a little further to keep the net resistance to air flow the same to generate the same amount of power. Only when wide open throttle considerations exist will you see an more power and better fuel economy than a less restrictive paper air filter. So if you drive a lot at wide open throttle, ie racing, it may make sense to use a K&N type air filter. If you drive a normal speeds like most people do, cleaner oil is probably more of a benefit.
Someone I finally agree with.
In a car like my GN I have a 14" K&N because the 1,200CFM airflow requirements take priority over filtration. I do see abrasion on the compressor wheel of the turbo from dust/dirt. However on my TL I use an OEM filter. An extra 1-2hp is not worth the loss of filtration. OEM is very nice, an oiled fabric on the airbox side (much, much finer than the cotton-gauze in the K&N) and a nice paper element on the engine side.
The broad consensus on the forum is that an good air filter and preventing leaks around the air filter is more important to keeping the oil clean than the oil filter. There is a general consensus that the oil impregnated cloth or sponge air filters do not filter as well as the fiber filter media air filters. So if you want clean oil and longer engine life use the fiber media filters. How much longer engine life is up for debate and would be expensive and difficult to actually test. There is a benefit to a less restrictive air filter being able to provide more air to the engine and thus more power, but I see this being applicable only under wide open throttle conditions. Power to a gasoline engine (not diesel) is controlled my controlling the amount of air that flow into the engine. This is done in most gasoline engines by the throttle plate. The engine computer injects the appropriate amount of fuel for the given air flow. If the a given air filter is more restrictive to air flow than another, it just means the throttle plate is opened a little further to keep the net resistance to air flow the same to generate the same amount of power. Only when wide open throttle considerations exist will you see an more power and better fuel economy than a less restrictive paper air filter. So if you drive a lot at wide open throttle, ie racing, it may make sense to use a K&N type air filter. If you drive a normal speeds like most people do, cleaner oil is probably more of a benefit.
Someone I finally agree with.
In a car like my GN I have a 14" K&N because the 1,200CFM airflow requirements take priority over filtration. I do see abrasion on the compressor wheel of the turbo from dust/dirt. However on my TL I use an OEM filter. An extra 1-2hp is not worth the loss of filtration. OEM is very nice, an oiled fabric on the airbox side (much, much finer than the cotton-gauze in the K&N) and a nice paper element on the engine side.
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Id much rather have a lifetime air filter than to have to buy one every 15k than wory about some microscopic dirt that may get past. I think it is safe to say no engine has every blown up or wore out sooner because the owner used a K&N style air filter.
I remember reading a post on a another forum years ago from a heavy construction equipment manager ie. caterpillar type stuff. They switched to gauze air filtration for a short period and had to switch back to paper filters because the UOA showed soaring levels of dirt infiltration into the oil with the gauze filters. They were operating in very dusty off road environment and not paved roads.
I believe that many people use K&N for many miles and never see a problem. I also believe there are users of the gauze filters that have premature engine wear as a result of dirtier oil from a gauze filter but it is hard to pin down or prove it's the filter. These effects build up slowly over time, it's not like your engine is going to blow up overnight. I used a K&N for a while but changed it out back to paper. I was never comfortable with seeing pin hole [censored] of light through the filter when I held it up to the sun. I live in a desert and my paper filters get rather dusty even at 15k. If you live in a wetter climate with cleaner air, using gauze may not be that adverse to engine life and you may see good UOA. Changing the oil often would also reduce any effects of dirt contamination from using gauze. Actually testing the effects of gauze filter on engine life would be rather expensive and I do not know anyone has done it.
I just paid $30 for an air filter and the idea of a reusable lifetime filter is appealing, but for now I stick with paper. The few extra horse power at wide open throttle is not worth the potential for more oil contamination to me.
I believe that many people use K&N for many miles and never see a problem. I also believe there are users of the gauze filters that have premature engine wear as a result of dirtier oil from a gauze filter but it is hard to pin down or prove it's the filter. These effects build up slowly over time, it's not like your engine is going to blow up overnight. I used a K&N for a while but changed it out back to paper. I was never comfortable with seeing pin hole [censored] of light through the filter when I held it up to the sun. I live in a desert and my paper filters get rather dusty even at 15k. If you live in a wetter climate with cleaner air, using gauze may not be that adverse to engine life and you may see good UOA. Changing the oil often would also reduce any effects of dirt contamination from using gauze. Actually testing the effects of gauze filter on engine life would be rather expensive and I do not know anyone has done it.
I just paid $30 for an air filter and the idea of a reusable lifetime filter is appealing, but for now I stick with paper. The few extra horse power at wide open throttle is not worth the potential for more oil contamination to me.
Originally Posted By: Jason2007
Id much rather have a lifetime air filter than to have to buy one every 15k than wory about some microscopic dirt that may get past. I think it is safe to say no engine has every blown up or wore out sooner because the owner used a K&N style air filter.
Depends on where you live but 30,000 miles is easy in most areas. I'll probably take this one to at least 40,000 miles and the rate it's been going. $28 for a premium filter every 3 years is not too much to pay. It beats having to clean it and oil it. No, an engine is not going to blow up from a little dust but it's proven that inferior filtration contributes mostly to cylinder/ring wear. I don't get the logic in saving a few bucks for the risk. I can see the compressor wheel abrasion in my turbo car from the terrible fitration of the K&N. Never saw that when it was stock with the paper element. I look at it as I'll likely break something before the additional wear has a chance to harm it but that's not acceptable for my daily driver. Another point is I don't totally trust any sealing/gasket system for 100,000+ miles. I admittedly don't have much experience with K&N drop-in filters but I just replaced whatever cheap filter the bodyshop installed after only 10,000 miles because the rubber was cracking and falling apart.
Id much rather have a lifetime air filter than to have to buy one every 15k than wory about some microscopic dirt that may get past. I think it is safe to say no engine has every blown up or wore out sooner because the owner used a K&N style air filter.
Depends on where you live but 30,000 miles is easy in most areas. I'll probably take this one to at least 40,000 miles and the rate it's been going. $28 for a premium filter every 3 years is not too much to pay. It beats having to clean it and oil it. No, an engine is not going to blow up from a little dust but it's proven that inferior filtration contributes mostly to cylinder/ring wear. I don't get the logic in saving a few bucks for the risk. I can see the compressor wheel abrasion in my turbo car from the terrible fitration of the K&N. Never saw that when it was stock with the paper element. I look at it as I'll likely break something before the additional wear has a chance to harm it but that's not acceptable for my daily driver. Another point is I don't totally trust any sealing/gasket system for 100,000+ miles. I admittedly don't have much experience with K&N drop-in filters but I just replaced whatever cheap filter the bodyshop installed after only 10,000 miles because the rubber was cracking and falling apart.
Originally Posted By: hofcat
I remember reading a post on a another forum years ago from a heavy construction equipment manager ie. caterpillar type stuff. They switched to gauze air filtration for a short period and had to switch back to paper filters because the UOA showed soaring levels of dirt infiltration into the oil with the gauze filters. They were operating in very dusty off road environment and not paved roads.
I believe that many people use K&N for many miles and never see a problem. I also believe there are users of the gauze filters that have premature engine wear as a result of dirtier oil from a gauze filter but it is hard to pin down or prove it's the filter. These effects build up slowly over time, it's not like your engine is going to blow up overnight. I used a K&N for a while but changed it out back to paper. I was never comfortable with seeing pin hole [censored] of light through the filter when I held it up to the sun. I live in a desert and my paper filters get rather dusty even at 15k. If you live in a wetter climate with cleaner air, using gauze may not be that adverse to engine life and you may see good UOA. Changing the oil often would also reduce any effects of dirt contamination from using gauze. Actually testing the effects of gauze filter on engine life would be rather expensive and I do not know anyone has done it.
I just paid $30 for an air filter and the idea of a reusable lifetime filter is appealing, but for now I stick with paper. The few extra horse power at wide open throttle is not worth the potential for more oil contamination to me.
I agree with that. I believe, and this is just a guess, but most of those people that do well with a K&N would do fine with no filter at all. I look at it as a rock catcher. Better than nothing and it keeps large objects out that that's about it.
I have several vacuum guages, I may install one just before the throttlebody in the TL and run it through normal driving and WOT with the stock airfilter and no airfilter. My guess is I'm not going to see a measurable difference.
I remember reading a post on a another forum years ago from a heavy construction equipment manager ie. caterpillar type stuff. They switched to gauze air filtration for a short period and had to switch back to paper filters because the UOA showed soaring levels of dirt infiltration into the oil with the gauze filters. They were operating in very dusty off road environment and not paved roads.
I believe that many people use K&N for many miles and never see a problem. I also believe there are users of the gauze filters that have premature engine wear as a result of dirtier oil from a gauze filter but it is hard to pin down or prove it's the filter. These effects build up slowly over time, it's not like your engine is going to blow up overnight. I used a K&N for a while but changed it out back to paper. I was never comfortable with seeing pin hole [censored] of light through the filter when I held it up to the sun. I live in a desert and my paper filters get rather dusty even at 15k. If you live in a wetter climate with cleaner air, using gauze may not be that adverse to engine life and you may see good UOA. Changing the oil often would also reduce any effects of dirt contamination from using gauze. Actually testing the effects of gauze filter on engine life would be rather expensive and I do not know anyone has done it.
I just paid $30 for an air filter and the idea of a reusable lifetime filter is appealing, but for now I stick with paper. The few extra horse power at wide open throttle is not worth the potential for more oil contamination to me.
I agree with that. I believe, and this is just a guess, but most of those people that do well with a K&N would do fine with no filter at all. I look at it as a rock catcher. Better than nothing and it keeps large objects out that that's about it.
I have several vacuum guages, I may install one just before the throttlebody in the TL and run it through normal driving and WOT with the stock airfilter and no airfilter. My guess is I'm not going to see a measurable difference.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Jason2007
Id much rather have a lifetime air filter than to have to buy one every 15k than wory about some microscopic dirt that may get past. I think it is safe to say no engine has every blown up or wore out sooner because the owner used a K&N style air filter.
Depends on where you live but 30,000 miles is easy in most areas. I'll probably take this one to at least 40,000 miles and the rate it's been going. $28 for a premium filter every 3 years is not too much to pay. It beats having to clean it and oil it. No, an engine is not going to blow up from a little dust but it's proven that inferior filtration contributes mostly to cylinder/ring wear. I don't get the logic in saving a few bucks for the risk. I can see the compressor wheel abrasion in my turbo car from the terrible fitration of the K&N. Never saw that when it was stock with the paper element. I look at it as I'll likely break something before the additional wear has a chance to harm it but that's not acceptable for my daily driver. Another point is I don't totally trust any sealing/gasket system for 100,000+ miles. I admittedly don't have much experience with K&N drop-in filters but I just replaced whatever cheap filter the bodyshop installed after only 10,000 miles because the rubber was cracking and falling apart.
It depends on how much your time is worth.
I find that spending an hour cleaning/oiling/drying is worth $28.
Also, I believe K&N will honor their product from any sealing/gasket problems you mention per their warranty.
Originally Posted By: Jason2007
Id much rather have a lifetime air filter than to have to buy one every 15k than wory about some microscopic dirt that may get past. I think it is safe to say no engine has every blown up or wore out sooner because the owner used a K&N style air filter.
Depends on where you live but 30,000 miles is easy in most areas. I'll probably take this one to at least 40,000 miles and the rate it's been going. $28 for a premium filter every 3 years is not too much to pay. It beats having to clean it and oil it. No, an engine is not going to blow up from a little dust but it's proven that inferior filtration contributes mostly to cylinder/ring wear. I don't get the logic in saving a few bucks for the risk. I can see the compressor wheel abrasion in my turbo car from the terrible fitration of the K&N. Never saw that when it was stock with the paper element. I look at it as I'll likely break something before the additional wear has a chance to harm it but that's not acceptable for my daily driver. Another point is I don't totally trust any sealing/gasket system for 100,000+ miles. I admittedly don't have much experience with K&N drop-in filters but I just replaced whatever cheap filter the bodyshop installed after only 10,000 miles because the rubber was cracking and falling apart.
It depends on how much your time is worth.
I find that spending an hour cleaning/oiling/drying is worth $28.
Also, I believe K&N will honor their product from any sealing/gasket problems you mention per their warranty.
Originally Posted By: Jason2007
If K&N let in so much dirt, then why are the insides of any of the air intake tubes clean and the throttle body is clean as well?
Why do UOAs show so much more silicone with a K&N airfilter?
Dust doesn't have to stick to the intake tube and the surface area of the tube is minute in comparison to the area of the tube. IMO, a clean airtube doesn't mean the filter is filtering well but a dirty one likely means the filter is not doing it's job.
If K&N let in so much dirt, then why are the insides of any of the air intake tubes clean and the throttle body is clean as well?
Why do UOAs show so much more silicone with a K&N airfilter?
Dust doesn't have to stick to the intake tube and the surface area of the tube is minute in comparison to the area of the tube. IMO, a clean airtube doesn't mean the filter is filtering well but a dirty one likely means the filter is not doing it's job.
Simply because I don't see a benefit to anything besides paper.
A paper filter is 9 dollars for most cars, replace them once every year or so.
By the time you buy an oiled filter, cleaner and spray oil, you are in for more money, and in most cases just the same amount of performance.
Someone please show me one test that shows any positive gains on regular naturally aspirated cars. MPG, horsepower, whatever..
A paper filter is 9 dollars for most cars, replace them once every year or so.
By the time you buy an oiled filter, cleaner and spray oil, you are in for more money, and in most cases just the same amount of performance.
Someone please show me one test that shows any positive gains on regular naturally aspirated cars. MPG, horsepower, whatever..
On a MAF car the oil from a K&N or other oiled filter can seep through and screw it over.
For the 3 K&N Style filters I have two are Fram Airhogs that I have about $3.00 total for both and I have a Spectre that I paid $20.00 Im am not concerned one bit about a microscopic increase in dirt. Will not hurt a thing and will not decrease the lifespan of any engine, period. I have been using oiled air filters for almost 15 years and never had a problem with any of them.
Originally Posted By: hofcat
I remember reading a post on a another forum years ago from a heavy construction equipment manager ie. caterpillar type stuff. They switched to gauze air filtration for a short period and had to switch back to paper filters because the UOA showed soaring levels of dirt infiltration into the oil with the gauze filters. They were operating in very dusty off road environment and not paved roads.
I read that too. His Chevy 305 wheezed it's last at 81K miles. He said the top end was "well sanded."
I remember reading a post on a another forum years ago from a heavy construction equipment manager ie. caterpillar type stuff. They switched to gauze air filtration for a short period and had to switch back to paper filters because the UOA showed soaring levels of dirt infiltration into the oil with the gauze filters. They were operating in very dusty off road environment and not paved roads.
I read that too. His Chevy 305 wheezed it's last at 81K miles. He said the top end was "well sanded."
Originally Posted By: Jason2007
For the 3 K&N Style filters I have two are Fram Airhogs that I have about $3.00 total for both and I have a Spectre that I paid $20.00 Im am not concerned one bit about a microscopic increase in dirt. Will not hurt a thing and will not decrease the lifespan of any engine, period. I have been using oiled air filters for almost 15 years and never had a problem with any of them.
I'm glad you're not concerned about the additional dirt but apparently every manufacturer is. You make a blanket statement that an increase in dirt ingestion won't hurt a thing or decrease the lifespan of any engine period. That's complete [censored]. It will and it has. There are numerous papers written on it. I've see the compressor wheel abrasion and upper cylinder wear from it. I've seen the dust covered intercooler piping. I live in a fairly dusty area. You can get away with it in some regions but to make a blanket statement like that is ignorant.
And really, comparing the price of used filters to make your argument better?
Let me ask a question, what kind of benefits do you think you're getting from the oiled filters?
For the 3 K&N Style filters I have two are Fram Airhogs that I have about $3.00 total for both and I have a Spectre that I paid $20.00 Im am not concerned one bit about a microscopic increase in dirt. Will not hurt a thing and will not decrease the lifespan of any engine, period. I have been using oiled air filters for almost 15 years and never had a problem with any of them.
I'm glad you're not concerned about the additional dirt but apparently every manufacturer is. You make a blanket statement that an increase in dirt ingestion won't hurt a thing or decrease the lifespan of any engine period. That's complete [censored]. It will and it has. There are numerous papers written on it. I've see the compressor wheel abrasion and upper cylinder wear from it. I've seen the dust covered intercooler piping. I live in a fairly dusty area. You can get away with it in some regions but to make a blanket statement like that is ignorant.
And really, comparing the price of used filters to make your argument better?
Let me ask a question, what kind of benefits do you think you're getting from the oiled filters?
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