Why I hate most HF tools

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Quote:
I cannot fathom the idea of supporting the philosophy that these bargain-basement priced knock-offs


Does this also mean anyone making sockets or ratchets, or adj. wrenches, or whatever is a "knock-off" in your oponion?

Better take a quick around your home at all the "knock-off's" you already have from kitchen appliances to the tv & computor, to more than likely the socks you're wrearing.

Harbor Freight gives a good quality tool at a fair price and is appreciated by those that do not make a living with tools, or seem to need braging rights.

BTW, are the Made in the U.S.A. products they sell also considered "knock-offs"?


Harbour Freight sells Asian tools with "American" names on them to make you feel "Patriotic" about buying them. "Pittsburgh" ring a bell? Oh, and it looks IDENTICAL to a Snap-On ratchet! Must be a coincidence right?

Again, there is a MARKED difference in making a ratchet that works and may in some or many ways resemble a ratchet manufactured by another company (Snap-On vs Craftsman for example) and completely copying somebody else's design! A "Pittsburgh" ratchet is a Snap-On clone. And no, they aren't the only one out there.

Sockets are always going to be similar, so there is no point in going there. Computers? My computer is housed in a Lian Li case that looks like nothing else on the market. Motherboard is manufactured by ASUS. It is very easy to differentiate the various motherboard manufacturers; they do not set out to "clone" each others products, rather they always add a "flare" to set their products apart from their competition. The complete opposite of a "knock-off".

I don't think you are quite grasping my use of the term "knock-off" here.

A Toshiba and a Panasonic LCD may be similar in size and appearance, but they won't be anything close to IDENTICAL. There will be a number of marked differences that set them apart. They want the consumer to associate a "look" with their name.

Now, if you have a brand called "Prosonic" that makes a TV that is IDENTICAL to the Panasonic TV, but costs 90% less and is made in a factory in China that does nothing buy reverse-engineer/copy other people's products, then THAT would be a knock-off! They are capitalizing on the "Panasonic look" to sell their product that looks like Panasonic, but is nowhere near the same quality.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Quote:
please learn to properly use the quote function. It makes your posts very difficult to decipher.


Can't use it if going over four deep. Or so it says.

If you notice much of the craftsman tools are now being made in china.

Quote:
They are a reseller. They (they laywers) would have to go after the manufacturer. If the company is Chinese, good luck!


Wrong, lawsuits can and are brought against the sellers, distributors every day, and won for that matter. However this may not be true in Canada.





I imagine you'd still have to prove liability. And then that would bring in what the product claimed to be/do. What is it rated for? I think with tools this would be very difficult.

BTW, yes, the quote limit is 4-levels, but you are using the round brackets instead of the square ones, which doesn't actually utilize the "quote" function. You want to use the ones to the right of the "P" on your keyboard, not the ones on the top of the 9 and 0 keys.

Regarding the Craftsman stuff, you are sadly correct

In the eyes of many, myself included, they were always regarded as an affordable, quality alternative to the "truck tools" like Snap-On, MAC...etc.

Will be a sad day when the only tools manufactured in America are the ones that nobody but fanatics and mechanics can justify the purchase of.

 

[jcwit]

[quot] Harbour Freight sells Asian tools with "American" names on them to make you feel "Patriotic" about buying them. "Pittsburgh" ring a bell? Oh, and it looks IDENTICAL to a Snap-On ratchet! Must be a coincidence right?

Again, there is a MARKED difference in making a ratchet that works and may in some or many ways resemble a ratchet manufactured by another company (Snap-On vs Craftsman for example) and completely copying somebody else's design! A "Pittsburgh" ratchet is a Snap-On clone. And no, they aren't the only one out there.

This has been going on for 60 years that I know of, nothing new that H/F came up with. Hey, if you don't like H/F tools, don't buy them, fine with me.

I'm almost 70, and paying high dollar for a tool makes no sense to me, is that OK. If its a Knock-off, thats OK with me also.

Few months ago I replaced a spring and struts on the rear of a 2001 Ford Escort, needed a spring compressor. First time in my life that I needed one, in 67 years, the H/F compressor worked just fine and got the job done. I just might go another 67 years before I need another spring compressor but it worked just fine for what I needed. Cost approx $10.00.

Does this help you understand now?

Actually in another 67 years I could care less.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Quote:
Harbour Freight sells Asian tools with "American" names on them to make you feel "Patriotic" about buying them. "Pittsburgh" ring a bell? Oh, and it looks IDENTICAL to a Snap-On ratchet! Must be a coincidence right?

Again, there is a MARKED difference in making a ratchet that works and may in some or many ways resemble a ratchet manufactured by another company (Snap-On vs Craftsman for example) and completely copying somebody else's design! A "Pittsburgh" ratchet is a Snap-On clone. And no, they aren't the only one out there.


This has been going on for 60 years that I know of, nothing new that H/F came up with. Hey, if you don't like H/F tools, don't buy them, fine with me.

I'm almost 70, and paying high dollar for a tool makes no sense to me, is that OK. If its a Knock-off, thats OK with me also.

Few months ago I replaced a spring and struts on the rear of a 2001 Ford Escort, needed a spring compressor. First time in my life that I needed one, in 67 years, the H/F compressor worked just fine and got the job done. I just might go another 67 years before I need another spring compressor but it worked just fine for what I needed. Cost approx $10.00.

Does this help you understand now?

Actually in another 67 years I could care less.



See, in that case, I'd just go up and rent an OTC spring compressor from Canadian Tire for about the same price, or borrow one from a mechanic friend.

A friend of mine bought a cheap Chinese spring compressor from Princess Auto (our version of Harbour Freight, we don't have HF up here that I know of) that let go and caused some serious damage when it broke. I was told this horror story by him when I asked him if he had a spring compressor because I was doing them (the rear springs) in my wife's Focus. So I went to Canadian Tire and rented their OTC one.

And while I DO understand where you are coming from, I was taught growing up that quality tools were an investment. The vast majority of my tools came from my grandfather. Most of them are around your age

And they get used regularly. So maybe that will help you understand where I am coming from?

 

[jcwit]

Well I understand. Then again we had girls with husbands that office work is it and changing a tire requires road service. Tools will go at auction along with gun collection. But hey I won't be here to cry about it either.

Regarding the spring compressor, springs for an Escort are pretty weak and just needed a little extra. I could have caught one if the tool had broken, and I'm not a big dude, fat but not big!

Hey have a good one, been a good discusion and my meds are finally kicking in

Best to you
jcwit

 

[Herz]

jcwit, and if that chinese compressor actually fails and kills you? Chinese tools are a danger, I have rented tools from AZ and have had to get 4 of them to get the job done, because I broke the others. For example, I had to replace the steering gearbox on my jeep, I rented a pitman arm puller from AZ, I bent the first three, the third shattered without even nuding the pitman arm. Good thing I was wearing safety glasses. I went over to NAPA picked up a US made KD tools pitman puller for 30 bucks, and it did not faulter.

A friend of mine was doing struts on his car and used a horrible freight spring compressor and it failed.

I helped a buddy remove a crank pulley on his car to do a timinig belt, he picked up a hf chain wrench, broke while I was tring to loosen the nut,

good price to put my well being at risk.

 

[sciphi]

Caveat emptor when buying from HF.

Some of the stuff is good for the price, like the 3-ton jack stands that are beefy, heavy little things. Identical to the Chinese Craftsman sold at twice the price. And the 2-ton low-profile non-racing jack that OTC sells at twice the price. In this case they're identical to name-brand things, just with HF paint and sold at HF prices. The wheels still go under the car with me in case they fail...

Buying anything these days is a roll of the dice on how it's made. Consider tool purchases from HF carefully.

If it looks too cheap to be good, it probably is...

 

[JHZR2]

Looks are deceiving. The puller I showed in the picture had a nice black finish, the cast metal looked to be well, done, etc.

In the end it was all false, just an attempt to make it look like it was better made than it was.

And given the price $10, Id bet I could do better elsewhere.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: defektes
jcwit, and if that chinese compressor actually fails and kills you? Chinese tools are a danger, I have rented tools from AZ and have had to get 4 of them to get the job done, because I broke the others. For example, I had to replace the steering gearbox on my jeep, I rented a pitman arm puller from AZ, I bent the first three, the third shattered without even nuding the pitman arm. Good thing I was wearing safety glasses. I went over to NAPA picked up a US made KD tools pitman puller for 30 bucks, and it did not faulter.

A friend of mine was doing struts on his car and used a horrible freight spring compressor and it failed.

I helped a buddy remove a crank pulley on his car to do a timinig belt, he picked up a hf chain wrench, broke while I was tring to loosen the nut,

good price to put my well being at risk.


The compressor failing and killing me? Well that would be a wonderment now wouldn't it. You state chinese tools are a danger, well just what other brand of tool do you buy. Remember, I'm not in the business of repairing auto's, I'm a retired business owner who putters around. You state it a good thing you were wearing safety glasses, well golly why wouldn't you be?

I changed a broken spring and struts on my Escort a few months ago and one would have been hard pressed to hurt themselves using the spring compressor as weak as those springs are. Be that as it may use whatever brand of tool you wish and spend the big bucks or not, makes no difference to me. No more than it should make any difference as to what I use should make a difference to you.

Remember as big as H/F has grown in the last few years and all the millions of dollars of tools they have sold lately there must be thousands of shade tree mechanics laying dead out their and emergency rooms filled with injuries, and lawyers by the thousands getting rich from lawsuits against H/F.

Just applying a little common sense to an otherwise ridiculous thread.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Looks are deceiving. The puller I showed in the picture had a nice black finish, the cast metal looked to be well, done, etc.

In the end it was all false, just an attempt to make it look like it was better made than it was.

And given the price $10, Id bet I could do better elsewhere.


Still without actually looking at it, it seems to have crystalized at the break.

Things happen, we do not live in a perfect world, no matter the cost or how hard we try.

Best example I can think of off hand is the space shuttle disaster from a few years ago. Mayhaps the seals were from H/F.

 

[ajchien]

Chiming in again, I don't mind HF. I don't have a fear of their tools when used properly. They draw me in because of their cheap prices. They annoy me because of inconvenience.

Positives. Great prices! 20%off coupons! Awesome selection of tools.

Negatives. Too many coupons, can only use one per day and need to come back? Occasional tools that are just plain junk and you need to go back to return. Tools with little use you already see wear, and know you'll have to go back eventually to warranty the tool.

Surprises. I've been told to stay away from anything that has a motor. Well, the cheapest el cheapo drill and angle grinder they have have held up fine over time. Huge variance in quality of tools. From really smooth fine tooth ratchets to other ratchets that are coarse, bind up, and you need to fight with the reverse selector.

Time v money I guess. If I buy USA I almost never return a tool (have warrantied a few). If I buy HF, I might have to go back to return, exchange, or warranty.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Looks are deceiving. The puller I showed in the picture had a nice black finish, the cast metal looked to be well, done, etc.

In the end it was all false, just an attempt to make it look like it was better made than it was.

And given the price $10, Id bet I could do better elsewhere.


Still without actually looking at it, it seems to have crystalized at the break.

Things happen, we do not live in a perfect world, no matter the cost or how hard we try.

Best example I can think of off hand is the space shuttle disaster from a few years ago. Mayhaps the seals were from H/F.


It is beyond humerous that you try to compare a system of systems of extreme complexity, like a space shuttle to a cast metal item from HF.

You could have at least drawn an analogy to an automobile, microwave oven or laptop computer... Maybe just a tad less complex.

But then again, a cast metal item??!? How many metal items are sold in the world without ever showing anissue until the day they are retired from use... and yet first box picked up at HF gives me that??!? Only fitting from a store that drives price on stuff hard. Let's see... the math is actually quite easy:

-Commodity prices going up cutting into profit
-Need to stay ultra-low priced to maintain brand distinction
-Quality costs money, whether implemented in China or the USA

And what do you get? Something that scrimps on quality in whatever way possible to meet some cost bogey which can't change as fast as commodity prices are hopping up.

It's not like between HF, Wal-mart, etc. we havent seen our share of issues with Chinese made junk recently... Dont know how you could say that it is NOT an issue. And no mater what, you ARE taking a risk trying to use this stuff in circumstances where there is a lot of force, and a lot of potential for damage. Auto springs require extreme caution. Probably one of the most important areas to need quality. Something that is prying two parts that are well-connected together apart from one another is another great example.

I went there to buy a dial gauge and mount thatIll probably use three times. If it is garbage, it will not hurt or kill me when it fails. So long as it works reasonably well for the limited use it gets, then OK. But there is no force/strain/compression/stress on the parts either...

 

[jcwit]

Quote:
But then again, a cast metal item??!?

Does it state it was cast metal? How do you know it wasn't forged? Looking at the picture as I stated earlier it looks as if it crystallized.

Quote:
It is beyond humerous that you try to compare a system of systems of extreme complexity, like a space shuttle to a cast metal item from HF.


Complexity has nothing to do with it at all. The point that seems to escape you is not the complexity but the fact that no matter how hard man tries and all the precautions man takes, and no matter the dollars spent the fact remains that things still break. And once again does it state that it is cast?

Quote:
It's not like between HF, Wal-mart, etc. we havent seen our share of issues with Chinese made junk recently... Dont know how you could say that it is NOT an issue. And no mater what, you ARE taking a risk trying to use this stuff in circumstances where there is a lot of force, and a lot of potential for damage. Auto springs require extreme caution. Probably one of the most important areas to need quality. Something that is prying two parts that are well-connected together apart from one another is another great example.


Have you ever replaced and used a spring compressor on a rear spring of a 2001 Ford Escort Sedan, if not you do not know whereof you speak. Sorry, but that IS the fact of the matter!

 

[JHZR2]

Cast/forged/whichever, the fact of the matter is that a bad one got through. The whole point of selling stuff is to provide reasonable quality. I cannot say that Ive ever had a bad tool out of the box, and Ive bought quite a few tools. But leave it to HF to be the first.

Not on a 2001 escort, but on MB diesels, which I drive, the spring will (and has) ripped those things apart, and WILL cause severe damage to anything in its way.

 

[Trav]

MB diesel front springs = real scary even with the best Klann compressor.I'm terrified every time i did one.

 

[Herz]

Springs can kill, never be careless working with them.

 

[jcwit]

Not on a 2001 escort, but on MB diesels, which I drive, the spring will (and has) ripped those things apart, and WILL cause severe damage to anything in its way.

Then I stand by the last sentence of my previous post!

I wasn't working on a M/B front spring was I.

Cast/forged/whichever, the fact of the matter is that a bad one got through. The whole point of selling stuff is to provide reasonable quality. I cannot say that Ive ever had a bad tool out of the box, and Ive bought quite a few tools. But leave it to HF to be the first.

And as you state one got thru, this is why manufactures have warrenties, as nothing is foolproof. If we lived in a perfect world where nothing ever went bad or slipped thru there would be no need for warrenties would there.

Even the work you do yourself is not foolproof and if you think not you're only fooling yourself.

 

[JHZR2]

OK, so safety is a fundamental issue when doing an MB front spring but not when doing an escort? Are you implying that the escort spring would not shoot off and damage anything if the compressor broke? What if it had the failure instead of the balljoint puller?

My point still holds. Yes, nothing is foolproof, however quality businesses do all they can to prevent those mess-ups from reaching the customer. HF, IMO does not have the QC/QA to prevent most of the issues from coming forward. If they cant do it on something as simple as a balljoint puller, how can I trust that they will do any better on a more complex device? Then again, how many failed tools have I bought from Sears, Snap-on, HD, etc? None. Sure I might break something from misuse, but that is my problem. Broken out of the box? Nope.

Things may have defects, but this is why companies implement six-sigma quality practices and the like - do better via continuous improvement of quality, which ultimately yields optimum profit. Not slap some junk in a stinky box and send to a bargain basement store so the user gets to find out if the thing is defective or not.

Anyone who believes that HF is not bottom of the barrel and suspect quality is fooling themselves. Sometimes the risk is worth it because the mode of failure is benign. Sometimes the risk is high because you are talking about an energetic or high stress system. Suspension components fall into that category.

 

[jcwit]

Are you implying that the escort spring would not shoot off and damage anything if the compressor broke? What if it had the failure instead of the balljoint puller?

Hey, you got it. That is exactly what I'm emplying. The amount I had to compress the spring to accomplish the job was approx 1 to 1 1/2 inches more than I could compress said spring by hand. Was not dangerous at all.

So once again in my case the H/F tool served its purpose well and at a very reasonable price for a one time use. And also running off to rent/borrow a tool from one of the auto part stores was not an option as it would amount to a 50 mile round trip 2 times, once to rent and another to return. In the case of H/F I was already in the area because of the proximity of the VA Hosiptal to H/F and no second trip needed.

Unless all the facts are known one does not know whereof they speak.

Regarding tool failure I'm happy for you never having had a tool fail out of the box except for H/F. However having been in procurement in the retail hardware industry and then owning my own business I know from first hand experience that all brands of tools have failure therefore the reason they have warranties.

In closing neither one of us well be able to convince the other over the internet, probably we both would be more understanding in person as each of use could see where the other was coming from. The main thing I think you're missing here is my age and lack of wanting to spend big bucks because of age and fixed income. As in the case of the spring compressor, in 67 years never needed on till now and will probably never need another, so a $10 dollar investment got the job done, with no money spent on gas as it was a visit to the VA Hosiptal which I'm reimbursed for.

Read this post carefully and really try to understand where I'm coming from.

Actually I would have had my independent shop fix the spring and strut problem but they were closed for a 3 week vacation, so that was not an option unless I wanted to listen to the spring banging down the road.

 

[Trav]

I understand you point and can agree with you if..
*You know the tool does not need to high quality because the spring is so weak it can almost be done by hand e.g. 86 VW golf rear struts.
* This was going to be the only job you will ever do with it.
* You either throw it away afterwards or have the discipline to keep yourself from using it on something heavier.

otherwise no.The average person says "great it worked we just add that to the toolbox".
Next time it may be a very strong spring and serious injury's.