Why folks should change tranny fluid more often!

[salesrep]

One of my customers recently bought a used Windstar with 100k on it with a used transmission. He began to have issues after purchase and quickly flushed and put in Schaeffers 204sat all trans supreme. For now his issues have gone away. We will sample a 10k.
The following is the sample of WHATEVER the dealer put in this transmission with an unknown amount of miles.

copper 79
iron 85
chrom 0
alum 5
lead 23
moly 1
phos 292
zinc 93
mag 15
calcium 129
sodium 29
potas 2
silicon 8
6.71 visc.
sulfur 8
osi 25
nit 0

 

[Scienceman]

WOW!!!

 

[bepperb]

I don't think that's that bad. Visc doesn't seem way out of whack. Iron and Cu is high, but not off the charts. That could be original, and if it is that amount of wear metals isn't that bad.

 

[unDummy]

Used transmission so its not original. With the visc, looks like recent fluid. So, it doesn't look bad UNTIL you know what the mileage is. The visc is a hint that the mileage is on the low side.

 

[Jim Allen]

If the metals in a standard spectrographic test are that high, imagine what a particle count would look like? I saw samples of a regular UOA, which looked reasonable, and particle counts that looked alarming.

Eleftherakis and Khalil's (E&K) papers/studies on ATF and wear metal within it say that 75 percent of the total contaminants developed (over a 70-100K interval) come from assembly and break-in, which makes that first change (at under 5K) the most important. The American OEMs have had a serious problem with cleanliness and the lack of robust filtration doesn't help. The average transmission rebuild shop is a far dirtier environment than the factory, so the liklihood of high contamination is greater. Plus, the failure debris is pretty hard to remove from everywhere, especially cooler and cooler lines. All this is why the smart shops are putting inline filters on the cooler lines at rebuilds.

 

[Steve S]

Jim I have been saying that for years. There have been many studies on the subject. Also include engines and differentials.I have seen so many opened up transmissions ,engines and differentials waiting to be repaired of rebuilt, even the other guys where I worked . It is a big problem. Dirt is the enemy.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Jim I have been saying that for years. There have been many studies on the subject. Also include engines and differentials.I have seen so many opened up transmissions ,engines and differentials waiting to be repaired of rebuilt, even the other guys where I worked . It is a big problem. Dirt is the enemy.


Well, you were ahead of the curve! I'm a fairly recent convert myself, but there is very strong evidence that should have slapped me in the face long ago. I have spoken with Abe Khalil at length and he's been fighting this fight since the '80s. After many ground-breaking studies and an increasing level of trouble with electronic transmissions, he is now getting some respect in the form of industry changes being implemented. The truth was always acknowledged, but the cost issues were always the deciding factor. It always came down to something like, "Well, it'll make it outta warranty and then some." Bean counters.

 

[salesrep]

Great points Jim and SteveS. Here is my take then with over 16 million transmissions failing yearly. The average Joe does not change his fluid at all and/or trades the car in. Respectable OEM fluid breaks down thru time and heat, with the possibilities break in metals as well...failure. Rebuild shop, particularly mass rebuild shops, don't pay as close of attention to dirt and metallic debris in assembly...process repeats itself.

Reasonable?

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: salesrep
Great points Jim and SteveS. Here is my take then with over 16 million transmissions failing yearly. The average Joe does not change his fluid at all and/or trades the car in. Respectable OEM fluid breaks down thru time and heat, with the possibilities break in metals as well...failure. Rebuild shop, particularly mass rebuild shops, don't pay as close of attention to dirt and metallic debris in assembly...process repeats itself.

Reasonable?

Absolutely!

E&K contend it's the metals killing the transmissions, not the used up oil. If you tear a failed trans down and find horrible fluid, that may well be the "egg" rather than the "chicken." Once the various control valves start to have hysterisis, a little it of slippage here and there starts to take it's toll on the clutch material and increasing localized fluid temps, which kills the oil a drop at a time. Abe told me that a good portion of the time, the many gallons of used fluid they analyzed from transmission with a few as 30 and and much as 120K (sometimes more), the fluid itself wasn't all that bad.. just loaded with contaminants, which jam valves and beget more contaminants (the chain reaction of wear). He also said that when he buys a new vehicle, he usually drives it right over and has the transmission fluid changed. If not then, before 5K.

 

[CourierDriver]

Ok,,I just had my transmission rebuilt, all new parts and a new transmission cooler, so what do I need to do,,Have the transmission oil changed out at 5000 miles or what,,,208,000 on the old transmission,,they found the transmission cooler was clogged too,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Steve S]

I would still say most failures especially in newer cars/ trucks are from parts breaking and the wear failures are fron dirty oil and burnt oil.

 

[salesrep]

Yea. 5k or so, put in a good fluid...good to go.

 

[caravanmike]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Ok,,I just had my transmission rebuilt, all new parts and a new transmission cooler, so what do I need to do,,Have the transmission oil changed out at 5000 miles or what,,,208,000 on the old transmission,,they found the transmission cooler was clogged too,,,,,,,,,,
i would change it early 5000-10000 sounds right for a fresh transmission.

how often did you change the old fill? i am just trying to think how the old cooler got clogged. did they remove the one way check valve in the cooler line?

 

[CourierDriver]

dont know about the one way check valve, I changed the transmission oil 3 times since may of 09, maybe the clogged cooler killed it off,,,anyway its shifting better then ever.

 

[caravanmike]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
dont know about the one way check valve, I changed the transmission oil 3 times since may of 09, maybe the clogged cooler killed it off,,,anyway its shifting better then ever.

The ram pick ups (assuming vans are the same) had a one way check valve in the cooler line, where it connected to the radiator. this valve held the fluid in the torque convertor when it was off, and sometimes it would stick starving the trans of lubrication. most trans shops know about this very well and just remove it when its time for a rebuild.

 

[CourierDriver]

I finally got back to the transmission tech who rebuilt my transmission. He said my cooler does have the check valve in it, but he did not remove the check valve because of the warranty. Guess I could have this done, but he did mention the part about it keeps the fluid in the TC.

 

[caravanmike]

i know jasper wants that check valve replaced when you buy one of their remans. if you collect on jaspers warranty they want to see the reciept for the mopar check valve.

if it gets removed , which alot of mopar owners do, you have to idle it in drive a little bit on first start of the day ,seeing how the 46re/36rh don't circulate fluid in park.

at least it has been brought to your attention. some 46re owners have met an early transmission rebuild when that check valve shuts and won't open, cutting fluid flow off to the transmission. and since your cooler was clogged i would figure the check valve could be suspect as well.

i don't believe it can be that expensive new? mike

 

[CourierDriver]

hope the new cooler checkvalve will work till the warranty goes out