More and bigger is better, so people will buy the product with the bigger number to "get more".
why dont manf. show temps for the weight?
- Thread starter jocktheglide
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: jocktheglide
why dont all reacers use 5w-20 or the 5w30?
Doesn't NASCAR use 0w-20?
What does a race cars oil have to do with a street cars oil? How many race cars have doors???
Originally Posted By: jocktheglide
why dont all reacers use 5w-20 or the 5w30?
Doesn't NASCAR use 0w-20?
What does a race cars oil have to do with a street cars oil? How many race cars have doors???
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: jocktheglide
why dont all reacers use 5w-20 or the 5w30?
Doesn't NASCAR use 0w-20?
What does a race cars oil have to do with a street cars oil? How many race cars have doors???
Don't ask me. I didn't bring this up.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: jocktheglide
why dont all reacers use 5w-20 or the 5w30?
Doesn't NASCAR use 0w-20?
What does a race cars oil have to do with a street cars oil? How many race cars have doors???
Don't ask me. I didn't bring this up.
How is Subaru playing CYA in offering the owner the option of simply using an API SM starburst 5w30 under all conditions, or tailoring the oil to the expected temperature range? There is no requirement that anything other than the 5w30 ever be used.
The whole point is that the owner with some small knowledge, who actually cares about what goes in the engine and who has a large and disparate stash (me), can select viscosities based upon expected temperatures, without endangering the engine warranty.
WRT BMWs, there are many GM cars that can somewhat approach the oil life that a BMW achieves only with certain select oils using any 5w30 starburst SM meeting the very easily met GM spec. Granted, GM doesn't have many North American models with BMW performance. Am I correct in thinking that the BMW OLM-equivalent is based upon nothing more than total fuel flowed, while the GM system uses a sophisticated bit of software accounting for temperatures, starts as well as other variables?
I just changed a G5 2.2 for a coworker. The sucker was at 32% on the OLM, although she hadn't a clue as to what had been put in it 6K miles prior, nor would the OLM, of course. So, all things being equal, this engine would have gone ~9K miles on any old sm conventional, using the well-validated OLM.
Incidentally, I had her buy M 0w30 for it (only 12.00 after MIR) and the correct OEM filter. I told her that with that setup, she could run the OLM to zero with confidence. I also told her that she would see a more rapid drop in the OLM in the coming cold weather.
Yes, the oil does meet the required GM spec, and GM does allow for 0w30 where very low temperatures, in the range of what we sometimes (rarely) see here,are expected.
The whole point is that the owner with some small knowledge, who actually cares about what goes in the engine and who has a large and disparate stash (me), can select viscosities based upon expected temperatures, without endangering the engine warranty.
WRT BMWs, there are many GM cars that can somewhat approach the oil life that a BMW achieves only with certain select oils using any 5w30 starburst SM meeting the very easily met GM spec. Granted, GM doesn't have many North American models with BMW performance. Am I correct in thinking that the BMW OLM-equivalent is based upon nothing more than total fuel flowed, while the GM system uses a sophisticated bit of software accounting for temperatures, starts as well as other variables?
I just changed a G5 2.2 for a coworker. The sucker was at 32% on the OLM, although she hadn't a clue as to what had been put in it 6K miles prior, nor would the OLM, of course. So, all things being equal, this engine would have gone ~9K miles on any old sm conventional, using the well-validated OLM.
Incidentally, I had her buy M 0w30 for it (only 12.00 after MIR) and the correct OEM filter. I told her that with that setup, she could run the OLM to zero with confidence. I also told her that she would see a more rapid drop in the OLM in the coming cold weather.
Yes, the oil does meet the required GM spec, and GM does allow for 0w30 where very low temperatures, in the range of what we sometimes (rarely) see here,are expected.
Gee, I dunno-
"So you used 20W-50 and your car runs like doo-doo? Well, you should have use the 'preferred' 5w30 and now you're SOL."
"So you used 5w30 and your car runs like doo-doo? Well, you should have followed the temp/viscosity chart and now you're SOL."
Subie's got it covered no matter what. What it amounts to in the end is them saying "you should use the preferred oil weight except when you shouldn't"
The BMW OLM used to run off of a complex algorithm of multiple engine factors, but you are correct that is now just simple fuel consumption meter. Incidentally, the amount of fuel varies both by model and within model.
As for GM bravely consenting that a 0w30 might be appropriate at Very Low Temperature, that just a playing into peoples ignorance of what those SAE J300 numbers really mean. It's not particularly hard to find a 0w30 with a higher viscosity at operating temp than a 5w30, 10w30, and even some straight 30. So at Very Hot Temperature, the wise man might want to switch to a 0W-30.
As for SL vs SM, that's pretty small potatoes. Show me an oil that can meet BMW LL-01 or MB 229.5 and I could give a fig what API rates it at.
"So you used 20W-50 and your car runs like doo-doo? Well, you should have use the 'preferred' 5w30 and now you're SOL."
"So you used 5w30 and your car runs like doo-doo? Well, you should have followed the temp/viscosity chart and now you're SOL."
Subie's got it covered no matter what. What it amounts to in the end is them saying "you should use the preferred oil weight except when you shouldn't"
The BMW OLM used to run off of a complex algorithm of multiple engine factors, but you are correct that is now just simple fuel consumption meter. Incidentally, the amount of fuel varies both by model and within model.
As for GM bravely consenting that a 0w30 might be appropriate at Very Low Temperature, that just a playing into peoples ignorance of what those SAE J300 numbers really mean. It's not particularly hard to find a 0w30 with a higher viscosity at operating temp than a 5w30, 10w30, and even some straight 30. So at Very Hot Temperature, the wise man might want to switch to a 0W-30.
As for SL vs SM, that's pretty small potatoes. Show me an oil that can meet BMW LL-01 or MB 229.5 and I could give a fig what API rates it at.
jpr,
You apparently misinterpreted what I wrote, or perhaps I didn't express myself very well.
Subaru is not covering themselves, rather they are allowing the more sophisticated owner the option of using something other than 5w30.
What the Subabru owner's manual tells us is that you may use 5w30 for all conditions, or you may use the temp/viscosity chart to find an alternative oil suited to the prevailing temperatures.
My point was that Subabru at least gives the owner a choice, rather than specing 5w30 and offering no alternative.
This choice matters only WRT warranty preservation, of course.
Thereafter, anyone can select anything to run in anything, using some common sense, I would hope.
WRT GM, GM has been very conservative in its oil requirements for some years now, so their reluctance to fully embrace 0w30 is hardly surprising. Note that a thick 0W-30, like GC, would not meet GM's requirements, since it is an SL and it is not an FE oil, in addition to failing to state that it meets the North American GM spec, although it does meet some Euro GM specs.
As for SL vs SM, API apparently feels that there is a difference, so you should probably let them know that it is only
small potatoes.
You apparently misinterpreted what I wrote, or perhaps I didn't express myself very well.
Subaru is not covering themselves, rather they are allowing the more sophisticated owner the option of using something other than 5w30.
What the Subabru owner's manual tells us is that you may use 5w30 for all conditions, or you may use the temp/viscosity chart to find an alternative oil suited to the prevailing temperatures.
My point was that Subabru at least gives the owner a choice, rather than specing 5w30 and offering no alternative.
This choice matters only WRT warranty preservation, of course.
Thereafter, anyone can select anything to run in anything, using some common sense, I would hope.
WRT GM, GM has been very conservative in its oil requirements for some years now, so their reluctance to fully embrace 0w30 is hardly surprising. Note that a thick 0W-30, like GC, would not meet GM's requirements, since it is an SL and it is not an FE oil, in addition to failing to state that it meets the North American GM spec, although it does meet some Euro GM specs.
As for SL vs SM, API apparently feels that there is a difference, so you should probably let them know that it is only
small potatoes.
I believe Occam would disapprove your "sophisticated owner" proposition.
As for the API, take this for test drive - http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RP/PC/index.html - and you'll quickly see that the performance difference between SL and SM is in fact small potatoes compared to the performance jump you'll see in going to LL-01 or 229.5. Now if you want to throw GF-4 into the mix, which I believe is what GM does, then you've got something to talk about.
As for the API, take this for test drive - http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RP/PC/index.html - and you'll quickly see that the performance difference between SL and SM is in fact small potatoes compared to the performance jump you'll see in going to LL-01 or 229.5. Now if you want to throw GF-4 into the mix, which I believe is what GM does, then you've got something to talk about.
I'm not sure that Occam and his Razor have any relevance here, unless you intended to imply that Occam would simply use the 5w30 in his Subaru.
Oddly enough, our Subie is currently running an LL-01 oil, not a 5w30.
No, I don't intend to run the oil as long as BMW might allow, since oil represents such a small fraction of the ownership and running costs of any car, and Subaru would not approve, in the unlikely event that the engine suffers a lubrication related failure while under warranty.
Oddly enough, our Subie is currently running an LL-01 oil, not a 5w30.
No, I don't intend to run the oil as long as BMW might allow, since oil represents such a small fraction of the ownership and running costs of any car, and Subaru would not approve, in the unlikely event that the engine suffers a lubrication related failure while under warranty.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Oddly enough, our Subie is currently running an LL-01 oil, not a 5w30.
No, I don't intend to run the oil as long as BMW might allow, ...
I wouldn't either - I don't the particulars of subie engines, but I suspect they have both a smaller sump and a smaller filter.
Oddly enough, our Subie is currently running an LL-01 oil, not a 5w30.
No, I don't intend to run the oil as long as BMW might allow, ...
I wouldn't either - I don't the particulars of subie engines, but I suspect they have both a smaller sump and a smaller filter.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Sump < 5qts, filter the size of a decent peach.
I suspected correctly then...
Sump < 5qts, filter the size of a decent peach.
I suspected correctly then...
So you did.
And, if I owned a modern BMW here in the US, where motor oil is cheap, I would run an LL-01 6K or so, particularly if I intended to keep the car long-term.
There is no point in extended drains if you can buy oil cheaply and if you can change it yourself, or have some competent person change it for you for a reasonable amount.
And, if I owned a modern BMW here in the US, where motor oil is cheap, I would run an LL-01 6K or so, particularly if I intended to keep the car long-term.
There is no point in extended drains if you can buy oil cheaply and if you can change it yourself, or have some competent person change it for you for a reasonable amount.
Heavens no!
The OEM interval depends upon the BMW's service indicator, which depends upon how much fuel has been used since last change/reset.
It could be 6K, but would likely be much longer.
There have been some posts on here concerning severe sludge in BMW engines with which the owners have followed the variable service indication. The speculation is that an inferior oil was likely used as a service fill, which seems reasonable. There is a reason for the LL-01 spec.
I really doubt that BMW has created a service interval intended to set the hapless owner up for failure.
Still, I would likely change at 6K and I would certainly use an oil meeting the relevant spec.
The OEM interval depends upon the BMW's service indicator, which depends upon how much fuel has been used since last change/reset.
It could be 6K, but would likely be much longer.
There have been some posts on here concerning severe sludge in BMW engines with which the owners have followed the variable service indication. The speculation is that an inferior oil was likely used as a service fill, which seems reasonable. There is a reason for the LL-01 spec.
I really doubt that BMW has created a service interval intended to set the hapless owner up for failure.
Still, I would likely change at 6K and I would certainly use an oil meeting the relevant spec.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I had her buy M 0w30 for it
Yes, the oil does meet the required GM spec, and GM does allow for 0w30 where very low temperatures, in the range of what we sometimes (rarely) see here,are expected.
For sure just nit picking...
Of course 0W30 is a fine all around grader which many of us use with success. But in any GM owners manual I have read GM permits the use of 0W30 only in an area of extreme cold, where the temperature falls below -20°F/-29°C. There are really few places where this occurs (w/o wind chill)....including OH? For example in Southern Ontario I would bet that it never got to -20 F last winter.
I had her buy M 0w30 for it
Yes, the oil does meet the required GM spec, and GM does allow for 0w30 where very low temperatures, in the range of what we sometimes (rarely) see here,are expected.
For sure just nit picking...
Of course 0W30 is a fine all around grader which many of us use with success. But in any GM owners manual I have read GM permits the use of 0W30 only in an area of extreme cold, where the temperature falls below -20°F/-29°C. There are really few places where this occurs (w/o wind chill)....including OH? For example in Southern Ontario I would bet that it never got to -20 F last winter.
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You are correct, that is exactly how the OM is worded.
Does it get that cold here?
Yes, the record low for this area is actually Does this happen very often?
No, it is a once in thirty years event.
Now, we will see at least a few below zero mornings each winter, but the extreme cold the OM refers to is rare in this area.
According to Mobil, the 0w30 is fine for this application, and the PDS does not show any great differences between it and the Mobil 1 5w30. Viscosities are pretty close at high and low temps. The HTHS of the 0W is lower, 2.99 vs 3.09. I doubt whether this would hurt a 2.2 liter Ecotec.
If you use the Mobil 1 oil selector on their site, for a 2.2 liter G5 still under warranty, the 0W is among the recommended oils.
I would not experiment with someone else's one year old car!
Does it get that cold here?
Yes, the record low for this area is actually Does this happen very often?
No, it is a once in thirty years event.
Now, we will see at least a few below zero mornings each winter, but the extreme cold the OM refers to is rare in this area.
According to Mobil, the 0w30 is fine for this application, and the PDS does not show any great differences between it and the Mobil 1 5w30. Viscosities are pretty close at high and low temps. The HTHS of the 0W is lower, 2.99 vs 3.09. I doubt whether this would hurt a 2.2 liter Ecotec.
If you use the Mobil 1 oil selector on their site, for a 2.2 liter G5 still under warranty, the 0W is among the recommended oils.
I would not experiment with someone else's one year old car!
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
People already don't know what the current designation means. Why further the confusion by putting -30 on there? If they're in a -10 environment, they'll sensibly (not) buy an oil that displays -20 or whatever. There's plenty of usable data they could put on the label, but I don't see anyone outside of BITOG (and like communities) needing the added complexity. Our public needs A, B, C, D.
Select a motor oil that displays "A". I guess we already have that. SL, SM, etc..etc.
but gary you get SM oils from 0w-20 to 20w-50 so it would not solve the climate problem!
People already don't know what the current designation means. Why further the confusion by putting -30 on there? If they're in a -10 environment, they'll sensibly (not) buy an oil that displays -20 or whatever. There's plenty of usable data they could put on the label, but I don't see anyone outside of BITOG (and like communities) needing the added complexity. Our public needs A, B, C, D.
Select a motor oil that displays "A". I guess we already have that. SL, SM, etc..etc.
but gary you get SM oils from 0w-20 to 20w-50 so it would not solve the climate problem!
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