Secret places of detention and inhuman treatment? Seems like I heard of stuff like this recently....
Why do we support thugs like this?
- Thread starter CivicFan
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New Rule: The United States is wrong no matter what the course of action is.
Move to stop ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? We're wrong
Don't move to stop ethnic cleansing in Darfur? Still wrong.
Support the only country in the Middle East that is "free" and has an electoral democracy? Wrong.
Support the autocratic regimes? Still wrong.
Move to stop ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? We're wrong
Don't move to stop ethnic cleansing in Darfur? Still wrong.
Support the only country in the Middle East that is "free" and has an electoral democracy? Wrong.
Support the autocratic regimes? Still wrong.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
Yes and many of those interests have given you and the rest of us oppertunities and freedom that we may have never had.
The US gets blamed regardless of what it does.If it doesnt get involved and things happen,its our fault.If we do get involved and things happen,its our fault.
I know that the US had made some bad decisions but it gets old hearing from some how bad a country it is.If some think it is so bad,they are free to leave.
Not sure what your take is, but I'm not blaming the US or criticizing the decision to get involved in this conflict. A destabilized Balkan means destabilized energy supply from the ME (pipeline) and potential hostile states near NATO, forcing us to help and spend more $ there.
If you follow that thinking, you'll realized that it is always about stability instead of humanity. Every nation does it, and it is unavoidable.
If I took your post wrong,I apologize.I just get tired of people putting the US down every chance they get when they have more freedoms and benefits here than anywhere else.
As has been said,it doesnt matter what the US does,they get blamed.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
Yes and many of those interests have given you and the rest of us oppertunities and freedom that we may have never had.
The US gets blamed regardless of what it does.If it doesnt get involved and things happen,its our fault.If we do get involved and things happen,its our fault.
I know that the US had made some bad decisions but it gets old hearing from some how bad a country it is.If some think it is so bad,they are free to leave.
Not sure what your take is, but I'm not blaming the US or criticizing the decision to get involved in this conflict. A destabilized Balkan means destabilized energy supply from the ME (pipeline) and potential hostile states near NATO, forcing us to help and spend more $ there.
If you follow that thinking, you'll realized that it is always about stability instead of humanity. Every nation does it, and it is unavoidable.
If I took your post wrong,I apologize.I just get tired of people putting the US down every chance they get when they have more freedoms and benefits here than anywhere else.
As has been said,it doesnt matter what the US does,they get blamed.
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
I always thought it was kind of strange that we backed & stopped the ethnic cleansing of the MUSLIM minority in that war-and were rewarded with 9/11 for our efforts!!
Exactly. Don't forget us helping the jihadists in Bosnia and training and equipping Bin Laden a few years prior to that.
No they didn't misunderstood. They are just 2 groups of people who aren't having a common interest to return the favor to us for each other.
Just like Christian nations in Europe aren't identical or have the same foreign policy interests, Muslim nations around the world aren't. As a matter of fact they fight among themselves as often as they fight us.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
I always thought it was kind of strange that we backed & stopped the ethnic cleansing of the MUSLIM minority in that war-and were rewarded with 9/11 for our efforts!!
Exactly. Don't forget us helping the jihadists in Bosnia and training and equipping Bin Laden a few years prior to that.
No they didn't misunderstood. They are just 2 groups of people who aren't having a common interest to return the favor to us for each other.
Just like Christian nations in Europe aren't identical or have the same foreign policy interests, Muslim nations around the world aren't. As a matter of fact they fight among themselves as often as they fight us.
'Balkans are not worth the bones of one Pomeranian musketeer.'
Otto von Bismark
Otto von Bismark
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Quote:
.If some think it is so bad,they are free to leave.
Might I suggest a different approach? How about seeing things you don't like and working to change them? The assumption that you "take or leave it" kinda sounds (how am I gonna say this without offending yet be understood) either lazy and or helpless. If you take whatever TPTB dish out ..they're gonna dish out lousier and lousier servings since you demand nothing more from them. Protest and outrage and disdain and contempt are perfectly functional and reasonable responses to things you think are wrong.
.If some think it is so bad,they are free to leave.
Might I suggest a different approach? How about seeing things you don't like and working to change them? The assumption that you "take or leave it" kinda sounds (how am I gonna say this without offending yet be understood) either lazy and or helpless. If you take whatever TPTB dish out ..they're gonna dish out lousier and lousier servings since you demand nothing more from them. Protest and outrage and disdain and contempt are perfectly functional and reasonable responses to things you think are wrong.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
.If some think it is so bad,they are free to leave.
Might I suggest a different approach? How about seeing things you don't like and working to change them?
Protest and outrage and disdain and contempt are perfectly functional and reasonable responses to things you think are wrong.
Amen to that.
Quote:
.If some think it is so bad,they are free to leave.
Might I suggest a different approach? How about seeing things you don't like and working to change them?
Protest and outrage and disdain and contempt are perfectly functional and reasonable responses to things you think are wrong.
Amen to that.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Win
Wasn't meant to be; had no idea the old Yugoslavia was such an oil rich region. Is it?
And the Caspian Sea... that doesn't border the Balkans, more like Iran.
The trans-Balkan pipeline (built by the US), and AMBO (a US-registered company) goes right through the Balkans. So while they may not have oil, it's a linchpin to ensuring a supply of oil from the Caspian see (where we already have oil leases). It's no accident we ended up with a military presence in the Balkans--and still operate a massive military base (Bondsteel) in the area.
I'm neither defending nor criticizing, since that's really a political discussion--but regardless, it's a fact: the Balkans were/are key to US interests, and that's why we were/are there.
The Caspian Sea region has always been a prize. It was the riving reason for much of Hitler's operations in that direction - to control energy flow from Azerbaijan and similar areas.
http://azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/32_folder/32_articles/32_ww22.html
Apparently it has the largst untapped fossil fuel resources of anyplace, valued at at least $5Trillion.
An interesting read on moving borders for western proximity and control of energy:
http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7770&IBLOCK_ID=35
Originally Posted By: Win
Wasn't meant to be; had no idea the old Yugoslavia was such an oil rich region. Is it?
And the Caspian Sea... that doesn't border the Balkans, more like Iran.
The trans-Balkan pipeline (built by the US), and AMBO (a US-registered company) goes right through the Balkans. So while they may not have oil, it's a linchpin to ensuring a supply of oil from the Caspian see (where we already have oil leases). It's no accident we ended up with a military presence in the Balkans--and still operate a massive military base (Bondsteel) in the area.
I'm neither defending nor criticizing, since that's really a political discussion--but regardless, it's a fact: the Balkans were/are key to US interests, and that's why we were/are there.
The Caspian Sea region has always been a prize. It was the riving reason for much of Hitler's operations in that direction - to control energy flow from Azerbaijan and similar areas.
http://azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/32_folder/32_articles/32_ww22.html
Apparently it has the largst untapped fossil fuel resources of anyplace, valued at at least $5Trillion.
An interesting read on moving borders for western proximity and control of energy:
http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7770&IBLOCK_ID=35
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Win
Unless our interests are directly implicated, or likely to be implicated, we should mind our own business.
Let the rest of the world shed their blood and spend their treasure to solve their problems.
This is supposed to be a joke, right??
Why do you think the US was/is involved in that area of the world? It has little to do with "being the world's policeman" and everything to do with fueling all of the vehicles in your signature...
Oil in the Caspian Sea is pretty vital to our interest, particularly long-term. Until we're energy self-sufficient, involvement in foreign affairs is vital to our interests, like it or not.
You have hit the nail on the head. Securing future oil interests is the US's top priority. They have no choice.
Originally Posted By: Win
Unless our interests are directly implicated, or likely to be implicated, we should mind our own business.
Let the rest of the world shed their blood and spend their treasure to solve their problems.
This is supposed to be a joke, right??
Why do you think the US was/is involved in that area of the world? It has little to do with "being the world's policeman" and everything to do with fueling all of the vehicles in your signature...
Oil in the Caspian Sea is pretty vital to our interest, particularly long-term. Until we're energy self-sufficient, involvement in foreign affairs is vital to our interests, like it or not.
You have hit the nail on the head. Securing future oil interests is the US's top priority. They have no choice.
I made a post that was political and that is against the rules.I should not have done so and I will try to keep things non-political.
I cant apologize for defending my country but I can apologize for not following the rules and I do so.
Having said that,I will try and word this so as not to be political.
Many times when some call for change,they are doing so to make changes that the majority doesnt want or they want to make changes that are above and beyond what may be needed.
To say that someone is lazy or helpless because they dont agree with the changes that some may want is not productive but counter productive.There are those that will call for change regardless of where they are or what is involved.It seems that some of these people make a career out of dividing people.They find anything they can that they can turn into a "cause".They then call for change and divide people for no other reason than to cause a division.
Some that call for change do so to try and make things like they are in other places when such isnt wanted or needed.
For exapmle,If I go to a gas station that has white gas pumps and the station beside it has brown pumps and I start pushing for the white pumps to be brown,that isnt needed.I am trying to force something on someone else that is in no way,needed.This is how some operate.Some may say that this doesnt make sense but it does make sense,a lot of sense.
This is similar to those that call for change in one place so that it will be like another place.We all cant be the same and when some realize this,we will all be better for it.
I do agree that there are times for change but there is also a time to lay aside differences and work together and stop dividing people.This same philosophy applies to dealings with those around the world,whatever the situation may be.
The US has been involved in things that they should have stayed out of but hindsight is 20/20 and many times,time is of the essence and hindsight is in the future.
The present is what we have and there are things that you have to make quick decisions on and many times,the decision can turn out to be the wrong one.
The problem is,the US gets blamed either way as has already been stated by another poster.If the US gets involved,it gets blamed.If the US stays out,it gets blamed.
The world is connected in many ways and many things are of importance to the US.The things that are in our interest must be protected and that sometimes makes for tough desicions.That sometimes makes for hard feelings but our interests must be protected and any country is going to do what it can to protect its interests.
I cant apologize for defending my country but I can apologize for not following the rules and I do so.
Having said that,I will try and word this so as not to be political.
Many times when some call for change,they are doing so to make changes that the majority doesnt want or they want to make changes that are above and beyond what may be needed.
To say that someone is lazy or helpless because they dont agree with the changes that some may want is not productive but counter productive.There are those that will call for change regardless of where they are or what is involved.It seems that some of these people make a career out of dividing people.They find anything they can that they can turn into a "cause".They then call for change and divide people for no other reason than to cause a division.
Some that call for change do so to try and make things like they are in other places when such isnt wanted or needed.
For exapmle,If I go to a gas station that has white gas pumps and the station beside it has brown pumps and I start pushing for the white pumps to be brown,that isnt needed.I am trying to force something on someone else that is in no way,needed.This is how some operate.Some may say that this doesnt make sense but it does make sense,a lot of sense.
This is similar to those that call for change in one place so that it will be like another place.We all cant be the same and when some realize this,we will all be better for it.
I do agree that there are times for change but there is also a time to lay aside differences and work together and stop dividing people.This same philosophy applies to dealings with those around the world,whatever the situation may be.
The US has been involved in things that they should have stayed out of but hindsight is 20/20 and many times,time is of the essence and hindsight is in the future.
The present is what we have and there are things that you have to make quick decisions on and many times,the decision can turn out to be the wrong one.
The problem is,the US gets blamed either way as has already been stated by another poster.If the US gets involved,it gets blamed.If the US stays out,it gets blamed.
The world is connected in many ways and many things are of importance to the US.The things that are in our interest must be protected and that sometimes makes for tough desicions.That sometimes makes for hard feelings but our interests must be protected and any country is going to do what it can to protect its interests.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
The present is what we have and there are things that you have to make quick decisions on and many times,the decision can turn out to be the wrong one.
The problem is,the US gets blamed either way as has already been stated by another poster.If the US gets involved,it gets blamed.If the US stays out,it gets blamed.
Very true, there's no way to have it perfect every single time. It is easy to not do something as an armchair quarterback and criticize but it is hard to actually go do something.
There are too many people with interests at stake, as well as too many consequences of any single decision. So it is always going to be disagreement. It is the fundamental "problem" of freedom, the handcuff that prevent you from hurting people as well as doing productive work.
The present is what we have and there are things that you have to make quick decisions on and many times,the decision can turn out to be the wrong one.
The problem is,the US gets blamed either way as has already been stated by another poster.If the US gets involved,it gets blamed.If the US stays out,it gets blamed.
Very true, there's no way to have it perfect every single time. It is easy to not do something as an armchair quarterback and criticize but it is hard to actually go do something.
There are too many people with interests at stake, as well as too many consequences of any single decision. So it is always going to be disagreement. It is the fundamental "problem" of freedom, the handcuff that prevent you from hurting people as well as doing productive work.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
The present is what we have and there are things that you have to make quick decisions on and many times,the decision can turn out to be the wrong one.
The problem is,the US gets blamed either way as has already been stated by another poster.If the US gets involved,it gets blamed.If the US stays out,it gets blamed.
Very true, there's no way to have it perfect every single time. It is easy to not do something as an armchair quarterback and criticize but it is hard to actually go do something.
There are too many people with interests at stake, as well as too many consequences of any single decision. So it is always going to be disagreement. It is the fundamental "problem" of freedom, the handcuff that prevent you from hurting people as well as doing productive work.
You are correct.As you said,it is very easy for us to be the armchair quarterback,we have the hindsight that wasnt available to those that had to make the decision(s).
Many times we are so quick to say what this person or that person should have done that we fail to realize that they were making a decision based on the information they had in front of them.
We also fail to think what we would have done if we were the one making the decision.Many times people will say that they would have done this or that instead of what actually took place.We dont really know how we would have handled things if we were in their position with the information they had.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
The present is what we have and there are things that you have to make quick decisions on and many times,the decision can turn out to be the wrong one.
The problem is,the US gets blamed either way as has already been stated by another poster.If the US gets involved,it gets blamed.If the US stays out,it gets blamed.
Very true, there's no way to have it perfect every single time. It is easy to not do something as an armchair quarterback and criticize but it is hard to actually go do something.
There are too many people with interests at stake, as well as too many consequences of any single decision. So it is always going to be disagreement. It is the fundamental "problem" of freedom, the handcuff that prevent you from hurting people as well as doing productive work.
You are correct.As you said,it is very easy for us to be the armchair quarterback,we have the hindsight that wasnt available to those that had to make the decision(s).
Many times we are so quick to say what this person or that person should have done that we fail to realize that they were making a decision based on the information they had in front of them.
We also fail to think what we would have done if we were the one making the decision.Many times people will say that they would have done this or that instead of what actually took place.We dont really know how we would have handled things if we were in their position with the information they had.
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Quote:
To say that someone is lazy or helpless because they dont agree with the changes that some may want is not productive but counter productive.
No. Get it right. Telling someone to swallow whatever is handed to them implies helplessness and laziness. Take it or leave it. My way or the highway.
It's as demeaning as you attempted to make my statement sound.
You don't have the singular right to determine what is right for this nation. You have the singular right to serve your best interest as you see fit. Others can do the same ..and to imply that they are "unAmerican" for wanting to do so ..and should instead opt to leave, well, that sorta opens the door for a group deciding that you can take a hike too ..since you don't qualify under their criteria as a "good American".
To say that someone is lazy or helpless because they dont agree with the changes that some may want is not productive but counter productive.
No. Get it right. Telling someone to swallow whatever is handed to them implies helplessness and laziness. Take it or leave it. My way or the highway.
It's as demeaning as you attempted to make my statement sound.
You don't have the singular right to determine what is right for this nation. You have the singular right to serve your best interest as you see fit. Others can do the same ..and to imply that they are "unAmerican" for wanting to do so ..and should instead opt to leave, well, that sorta opens the door for a group deciding that you can take a hike too ..since you don't qualify under their criteria as a "good American".
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
To say that someone is lazy or helpless because they dont agree with the changes that some may want is not productive but counter productive.
No. Get it right. Telling someone to swallow whatever is handed to them implies helplessness and laziness. Take it or leave it. My way or the highway.
It's as demeaning as you attempted to make my statement sound.
You don't have the singular right to determine what is right for this nation. You have the singular right to serve your best interest as you see fit. Others can do the same ..and to imply that they are "unAmerican" for wanting to do so ..and should instead opt to leave, well, that sorta opens the door for a group deciding that you can take a hike too ..since you don't qualify under their criteria as a "good American".
I have it right for the most part,you may have a differing opinion but that doesnt make it right.
Just as you dont have the right to say that someone is lazy and or helpless because they dont agree with you.For you to say that is as wrong and maybe even more so than you trying to say that what I have said,is wrong.
You can say that I am not a good American,which you seem to have really implied,that is fine.
You can try and belittle me and others all you want,that is you up to you.I know who I am and what I stand for.
You will just have to disagree with me and leave it at that.
Quote:
To say that someone is lazy or helpless because they dont agree with the changes that some may want is not productive but counter productive.
No. Get it right. Telling someone to swallow whatever is handed to them implies helplessness and laziness. Take it or leave it. My way or the highway.
It's as demeaning as you attempted to make my statement sound.
You don't have the singular right to determine what is right for this nation. You have the singular right to serve your best interest as you see fit. Others can do the same ..and to imply that they are "unAmerican" for wanting to do so ..and should instead opt to leave, well, that sorta opens the door for a group deciding that you can take a hike too ..since you don't qualify under their criteria as a "good American".
I have it right for the most part,you may have a differing opinion but that doesnt make it right.
Just as you dont have the right to say that someone is lazy and or helpless because they dont agree with you.For you to say that is as wrong and maybe even more so than you trying to say that what I have said,is wrong.
You can say that I am not a good American,which you seem to have really implied,that is fine.
You can try and belittle me and others all you want,that is you up to you.I know who I am and what I stand for.
You will just have to disagree with me and leave it at that.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Well, it's obvious you're going to continue to distort everything I say and turn it around.
Have a nice day. Serve your best interest ..others will do the same. Don't tell them what to do or think ..and don't assume dominion over the concept of what constitutes a "good American".
Have a nice day. Serve your best interest ..others will do the same. Don't tell them what to do or think ..and don't assume dominion over the concept of what constitutes a "good American".
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
A lot of people thought we should have stayed out of the Balkins completely. But No we're supposed to be the world police.
How the USA has strayed from our Forefathers original plan....
Even Geo Washington spoke of how the US must resist the urge to engage in entangements with foreign nations.
No only should we NOT be in the Balkins, we should never have been in the middle east, south america, or asia....
we have become an evil empire.
A lot of people thought we should have stayed out of the Balkins completely. But No we're supposed to be the world police.
How the USA has strayed from our Forefathers original plan....
Even Geo Washington spoke of how the US must resist the urge to engage in entangements with foreign nations.
No only should we NOT be in the Balkins, we should never have been in the middle east, south america, or asia....
we have become an evil empire.
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
we have become an evil empire.
Are you from the US? If not,you cant say that we have become something unless you are speaking of Canada.
If you are saying this about the US,it is completely untrue.
I ask those that are being arm chair quarterbacks how they would feel if they were a leader of a country and had only a short time to act when the interests of their country are at stake?
When it comes to this type of thing,you have to make decisions and if you make the wrong one,there could be many lives lost.On the other hand,if you make the right one,their could be lives lost.
You have to weigh the options and try and determine which option is the best with the information that you have at hand,not what me be known months or years after the fact.
Lets look at at an example here.Lets say that there is something(enter what care about here)that is facing a dangerous situation.You have been informed of this situation and it is a matter of life and death.You have to act quickly or more will be in danger.You also know that by acting,you may put others in harms way.
Now,do you allow those that are your,friends,family etc. to be harmed or do you try and keep them safe?
It is up to you and you only,what do you do?
we have become an evil empire.
Are you from the US? If not,you cant say that we have become something unless you are speaking of Canada.
If you are saying this about the US,it is completely untrue.
I ask those that are being arm chair quarterbacks how they would feel if they were a leader of a country and had only a short time to act when the interests of their country are at stake?
When it comes to this type of thing,you have to make decisions and if you make the wrong one,there could be many lives lost.On the other hand,if you make the right one,their could be lives lost.
You have to weigh the options and try and determine which option is the best with the information that you have at hand,not what me be known months or years after the fact.
Lets look at at an example here.Lets say that there is something(enter what care about here)that is facing a dangerous situation.You have been informed of this situation and it is a matter of life and death.You have to act quickly or more will be in danger.You also know that by acting,you may put others in harms way.
Now,do you allow those that are your,friends,family etc. to be harmed or do you try and keep them safe?
It is up to you and you only,what do you do?
It hasn't stopped. They are still harvesting organs
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/int...icking-1.324383
Israel, China, and India are the top countries that harvest organs.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/int...icking-1.324383
Israel, China, and India are the top countries that harvest organs.
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
A lot of people thought we should have stayed out of the Balkins completely. But No we're supposed to be the world police.
How the USA has strayed from our Forefathers original plan....
Even Geo Washington spoke of how the US must resist the urge to engage in entangements with foreign nations.
No only should we NOT be in the Balkins, we should never have been in the middle east, south america, or asia....
we have become an evil empire.
This, minus the evil empire. The thing to remember here is that the more you intervene, the more you unbalance and unsettle people.
This isn't politics, this is regarding conflict in general.
If you are always Switzerland you are always neutral, you hear both sides, but you don't choose. You stay out of it.
Now if you start to police/support one side, you are going to make an enemy out of the other. Now some of the other sides friends may be fine with you, and others might not. And thats basically where we as a country stand. When you intervene or support one or more friends, you aren't going to gain the support of the other guys buddies and may end up losing some of your own. Opinion is opinion, leave it at that.
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
A lot of people thought we should have stayed out of the Balkins completely. But No we're supposed to be the world police.
How the USA has strayed from our Forefathers original plan....
Even Geo Washington spoke of how the US must resist the urge to engage in entangements with foreign nations.
No only should we NOT be in the Balkins, we should never have been in the middle east, south america, or asia....
we have become an evil empire.
This, minus the evil empire. The thing to remember here is that the more you intervene, the more you unbalance and unsettle people.
This isn't politics, this is regarding conflict in general.
If you are always Switzerland you are always neutral, you hear both sides, but you don't choose. You stay out of it.
Now if you start to police/support one side, you are going to make an enemy out of the other. Now some of the other sides friends may be fine with you, and others might not. And thats basically where we as a country stand. When you intervene or support one or more friends, you aren't going to gain the support of the other guys buddies and may end up losing some of your own. Opinion is opinion, leave it at that.
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Morality is an essential part of policy making in just the same way as it is a part of the individual decision making. Up until the end of the Korean War the US had managed to have a healthy dose moral argument in our foreign policy. Because of that we had been seen as a positive force in the world.
By engaging in shady activities of empire building that discounts values that individuals expect to hold themselves accountable, a country loses its high ground.
By engaging in shady activities of empire building that discounts values that individuals expect to hold themselves accountable, a country loses its high ground.
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