Why do shops use tap water?!
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Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
Someone tell me why shops all use tap water for their coolant flushes?
There's not a thing wrong with using tap water as a flush fluid; it's not in there long enough, or in any meaningful volume, to do any sort of harm.
Someone tell me why shops all use tap water for their coolant flushes?
There's not a thing wrong with using tap water as a flush fluid; it's not in there long enough, or in any meaningful volume, to do any sort of harm.
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The shop I used to work in used tap water for coolant. I think many shops are the same way. If it really was a problem, I think there would be many more cars with cooling system issues.
So the OP, who has made it clear he doesn't know much about cars and is here to constantly ask questions, is now an expert on cooling systems? I find that suspect.
How do minerals "eat" plastics?
Well, in response to the many shops saying Dex cool causes all sorts of problems, GM responded that it should always be mixed in at least 50 / 50, Dex cool to distilled , mineral free water. (Sorry about the grammar). The plastic elbows and IMG's that corroded, according to GM, were due to the minerals and / or air in the Dex cool systems. So, it could be taken that they were saying that mixing the antifreze with minerals in water, caused the damage to the plastic parts.
Since we have a few GM's in the family, I always mix the Dex cool with distilled water. Its only like 80 cents a gallon at the supermarket. Sounds like (I know everyone on this site hates this saying) cheap insurance.
The shop I used to work in used tap water for coolant. I think many shops are the same way. If it really was a problem, I think there would be many more cars with cooling system issues.
So the OP, who has made it clear he doesn't know much about cars and is here to constantly ask questions, is now an expert on cooling systems? I find that suspect.
How do minerals "eat" plastics?
Well, in response to the many shops saying Dex cool causes all sorts of problems, GM responded that it should always be mixed in at least 50 / 50, Dex cool to distilled , mineral free water. (Sorry about the grammar). The plastic elbows and IMG's that corroded, according to GM, were due to the minerals and / or air in the Dex cool systems. So, it could be taken that they were saying that mixing the antifreze with minerals in water, caused the damage to the plastic parts.
Since we have a few GM's in the family, I always mix the Dex cool with distilled water. Its only like 80 cents a gallon at the supermarket. Sounds like (I know everyone on this site hates this saying) cheap insurance.
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
if you have nothing nice to say then dont speak at all.
Same could be said about wailing to people that car shops are all evil and ruining cars because you read a bottle of coolant that said to only use distilled water and decided you were suddenly an expert opinion
Tap water is often hard, and anyone who has hard water knows you can get some of that crusty cruft on your faucets, having that in a closed cooling system with tons of nooks and crannies you can't easily scrub with a piece of steel wool tends to be a concern for automakers.
Final fill should be distilled, but the flush should be just clean water. No tap water on earth somehow causes the equivalent of the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to plastic in an engine.
But now that I've given the sane, sensible, intelligent response to the OP's original question, expect to see fifty posts about how he hangs around the shop and knows they're doing a poor job anyhow and just wants attention and affirmation for it.
if you have nothing nice to say then dont speak at all.
Same could be said about wailing to people that car shops are all evil and ruining cars because you read a bottle of coolant that said to only use distilled water and decided you were suddenly an expert opinion
Tap water is often hard, and anyone who has hard water knows you can get some of that crusty cruft on your faucets, having that in a closed cooling system with tons of nooks and crannies you can't easily scrub with a piece of steel wool tends to be a concern for automakers.
Final fill should be distilled, but the flush should be just clean water. No tap water on earth somehow causes the equivalent of the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to plastic in an engine.
But now that I've given the sane, sensible, intelligent response to the OP's original question, expect to see fifty posts about how he hangs around the shop and knows they're doing a poor job anyhow and just wants attention and affirmation for it.
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Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
if you have nothing nice to say then dont speak at all.
Same could be said about wailing to people that car shops are all evil and ruining cars because you read a bottle of coolant that said to only use distilled water and decided you were suddenly an expert opinion
Tap water is often hard, and anyone who has hard water knows you can get some of that crusty cruft on your faucets, having that in a closed cooling system with tons of nooks and crannies you can't easily scrub with a piece of steel wool tends to be a concern for automakers.
Final fill should be distilled, but the flush should be just clean water. No tap water on earth somehow causes the equivalent of the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to plastic in an engine.
But now that I've given the sane, sensible, intelligent response to the OP's original question, expect to see fifty posts about how he hangs around the shop and knows they're doing a poor job anyhow and just wants attention and affirmation for it.
So youre basically saying, as in final fill, you mean the fill that stays in? As long as that is distilled?
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
Someone tell me why shops all use tap water for their coolant flushes?
$
I think youre right. If im correct, shops will charge a premium for the tap water no?
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
if you have nothing nice to say then dont speak at all.
Same could be said about wailing to people that car shops are all evil and ruining cars because you read a bottle of coolant that said to only use distilled water and decided you were suddenly an expert opinion
Tap water is often hard, and anyone who has hard water knows you can get some of that crusty cruft on your faucets, having that in a closed cooling system with tons of nooks and crannies you can't easily scrub with a piece of steel wool tends to be a concern for automakers.
Final fill should be distilled, but the flush should be just clean water. No tap water on earth somehow causes the equivalent of the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to plastic in an engine.
But now that I've given the sane, sensible, intelligent response to the OP's original question, expect to see fifty posts about how he hangs around the shop and knows they're doing a poor job anyhow and just wants attention and affirmation for it.
So youre basically saying, as in final fill, you mean the fill that stays in? As long as that is distilled?
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
Someone tell me why shops all use tap water for their coolant flushes?
$
I think youre right. If im correct, shops will charge a premium for the tap water no?
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In deference to the OP, and all joking aside, it's insane to expect use of other than tap water in the quantities needed for effective flushing. The small residue left behind will cause no meaningful problems. As another poster has already noted, the chemistry in modern coolant formulae can easily tolerate this miniscule amount.
Getting your shorts in a bind over a few drops of water is silly.
We have exceedingly hard well water that leaves deposits even after softening. While I have no problem using it for flushing, in some engines we'll splurge the extra $2.50 for three gallons of distilled water for final fill. It's going to be in there for 5 years in some instances, so it is cheap insurance, especially when the manufacturer is recommending it.
The whole distilled water thing was totally off the radar 40 or more years ago. Back then, you'd get laughed out of the garage for such nonsense. But obviously engines and cooling systems (including how often the coolant gets changed) have changed a bit since then.
Getting your shorts in a bind over a few drops of water is silly.
We have exceedingly hard well water that leaves deposits even after softening. While I have no problem using it for flushing, in some engines we'll splurge the extra $2.50 for three gallons of distilled water for final fill. It's going to be in there for 5 years in some instances, so it is cheap insurance, especially when the manufacturer is recommending it.
The whole distilled water thing was totally off the radar 40 or more years ago. Back then, you'd get laughed out of the garage for such nonsense. But obviously engines and cooling systems (including how often the coolant gets changed) have changed a bit since then.
If a shop charges you for tap water you have a really freaking stupid shop and need to leave... Most shops charge a set fee for a coolant system service and that's all you should be paying and worrying about.
And the final fill /should/ probably be distilled. Almost every diesel semi-rig I've read the manual on says you can use regular water in a pinch if you're low (I think Caterpillar's manuals suggest clean, bottled water if distilled isn't available) but universally, its said you should never really use it for a complete service fill. The reason is distilled and deionized water contains no minerals or anything; just pure water, while regular water has iron/calcium/other ions in it.
The main issue is some people have really hard water, and doing a complete service fill with hard water can mean these other ions can cause stuff to build up, or potentially cause issues in the chemistry of the coolant ("can" and "potentially" being key, its easier to just say use distilled then be liable for any potential issue). The worst you'll get from that is maybe some hard water like deposits in the cooling system.
Topping off with tap water is fine because its a real minimal amount anyhow. You're better off topping off with tap water then running low on coolant to say the least. The biggest concern then is really throwing the coolant ratio out of whack (too much water:coolant and having it freeze or something), the fact its not distilled water is really a moot point in the grand scheme of things.
The fact is distilled water is very clean and has no minerals so its the perfect "mix" for a full strength coolant. Regular tap water has minerals, which, are great, since drinking distilled and deionized water can kill you by pulling minerals from your body...
Think of it this way, if I use tap water from all over the country to make a Coca Cola, guaranteed they'd all taste different, so they suggest something they know will work %100 of the time then to chance it.
And the final fill /should/ probably be distilled. Almost every diesel semi-rig I've read the manual on says you can use regular water in a pinch if you're low (I think Caterpillar's manuals suggest clean, bottled water if distilled isn't available) but universally, its said you should never really use it for a complete service fill. The reason is distilled and deionized water contains no minerals or anything; just pure water, while regular water has iron/calcium/other ions in it.
The main issue is some people have really hard water, and doing a complete service fill with hard water can mean these other ions can cause stuff to build up, or potentially cause issues in the chemistry of the coolant ("can" and "potentially" being key, its easier to just say use distilled then be liable for any potential issue). The worst you'll get from that is maybe some hard water like deposits in the cooling system.
Topping off with tap water is fine because its a real minimal amount anyhow. You're better off topping off with tap water then running low on coolant to say the least. The biggest concern then is really throwing the coolant ratio out of whack (too much water:coolant and having it freeze or something), the fact its not distilled water is really a moot point in the grand scheme of things.
The fact is distilled water is very clean and has no minerals so its the perfect "mix" for a full strength coolant. Regular tap water has minerals, which, are great, since drinking distilled and deionized water can kill you by pulling minerals from your body...
Think of it this way, if I use tap water from all over the country to make a Coca Cola, guaranteed they'd all taste different, so they suggest something they know will work %100 of the time then to chance it.
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Most shops are on some sort of State,County or City provided water. These waters are normally ran through a Reverse Osmosis system which removes 99.99% of the minerals in the water. The car makers use a simmiliar system.
So unless the shop your dealing with is on a well the water used is fine.
The water where I am is considered "clean enough" right out of the ground for human consumption.
http://www.cityofhesperia.us/index.aspx?NID=664
But it is full of Calicum which is good for your bones but bad for your cooling system.
So after I flush your cooling system I will flush out the tap water with RO water from our RO system then add coolant and more RO water as needed.
We had our RO water tested and it had only 3ppm solids.
So unless the shop your dealing with is on a well the water used is fine.
The water where I am is considered "clean enough" right out of the ground for human consumption.
http://www.cityofhesperia.us/index.aspx?NID=664
But it is full of Calicum which is good for your bones but bad for your cooling system.
So after I flush your cooling system I will flush out the tap water with RO water from our RO system then add coolant and more RO water as needed.
We had our RO water tested and it had only 3ppm solids.
OK im not an expert but I have been a technician at a ford dealership lnger than I car to admit. Makes for a decent living though. I brought the subject of plastic parts degrading, mainly 4.6l intakes and 4.0l thermostat housings using the premium golden coolant with an engineer. First thing he said was the water mixed with the coolant was the problem. He stated that distilled water would prevent this from happening.
Spring water here, for years. No problems ever ever ever.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Most shops are on some sort of State,County or City provided water. These waters are normally ran through a Reverse Osmosis system which removes 99.99% of the minerals in the water. The car makers use a simmiliar system.
It's exceedingly rare for a municipal water system to use reverse osmosis. That's a very expensive method that's only used when there is no alternative water source.
If you mean the shop runs the water through a RO system, that's more likely. But I don't believe it's common unless it's a dealer where the manufacturer mandates it.
Most shops are on some sort of State,County or City provided water. These waters are normally ran through a Reverse Osmosis system which removes 99.99% of the minerals in the water. The car makers use a simmiliar system.
It's exceedingly rare for a municipal water system to use reverse osmosis. That's a very expensive method that's only used when there is no alternative water source.
If you mean the shop runs the water through a RO system, that's more likely. But I don't believe it's common unless it's a dealer where the manufacturer mandates it.
I worked at Chrysler in the 1960's and the radiators were filled using regular city water.
Maybe GMBoy can tell us what they use at GM for factory fill nowadays.
Maybe GMBoy can tell us what they use at GM for factory fill nowadays.
I'll just say, if distilled water wasn't a whole $0.40 a gallon at the grocery store (its sold as deionized water for steam irons, press your shirt and get no weird streaks or deposits!), I'd be using bottled water or reverse-osmosis'ed water myself.
The tap water here is [censored], though, harder then the mother in law.
The tap water here is [censored], though, harder then the mother in law.
The issue with tap water is that the minerals do not behave well with coolants containing phosphates. This is why the Japanese HOAT coolants which contain phosphates are always 50/50 premixes.
Since it is less of an issue with coolants that do not contain phosphates, GM states that it is okay to use drinkable water with Dex-Cool.
Since it is less of an issue with coolants that do not contain phosphates, GM states that it is okay to use drinkable water with Dex-Cool.
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Diverse technologies have been developed to protect engines from corrosion. In Europe, problems with hard water minerals forced coolant technologies to be phosphate-free. Calcium and magnesium, minerals found in hard water, react with phosphate inhibitors to form calcium or magnesium phosphate, which typically leads to scale formation on hot engine surfaces. This could lead to loss of heat transfer or corrosion under the scale.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/841/coolant-fundamentals
Found after The Critic prompted me to Google "phosphated coolant".
Diverse technologies have been developed to protect engines from corrosion. In Europe, problems with hard water minerals forced coolant technologies to be phosphate-free. Calcium and magnesium, minerals found in hard water, react with phosphate inhibitors to form calcium or magnesium phosphate, which typically leads to scale formation on hot engine surfaces. This could lead to loss of heat transfer or corrosion under the scale.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/841/coolant-fundamentals
Found after The Critic prompted me to Google "phosphated coolant".
Batteries should use distilled water, but for cooling systems, tap water is fine. [unless it is horrid]
Just checked a manual for one of our 2009 gmc fleet vans and it says mix dexcool with any drinkable water
It's totally okay to use tap water. Tap water usually doesn't have that much calcium and magnesium in it (the elements that make it "hard"). Almost all city water is softened....which means it has a few PPM of calcium and magnesium and approximately 6-10ppm sodium. Cities usually add back calcium and magnesium so they act sacrificial to the iron pipes that carry it.
Now water that goes through a softener at home will have about virtually ZERO calcium and magnesium and about 6ppm sodium. Nothing to worry about. So, in a 2 gallon coolant system, you're only adding 1 gallon of water, and so you're looking at approximately 0.00003 grams of calcium, magnesium, and sodium in your coolant system.
That's even if it all (Ca, Mg, and Na) deposits out as Phosphate salts, you're still looking at way less than a 0.001 grams of crud in your cooling system. You could barely see it.
Now if you're using WELL WATER, it is possible that you could have enough contamination that you might be able to actually see. Perhaps.
Now water that goes through a softener at home will have about virtually ZERO calcium and magnesium and about 6ppm sodium. Nothing to worry about. So, in a 2 gallon coolant system, you're only adding 1 gallon of water, and so you're looking at approximately 0.00003 grams of calcium, magnesium, and sodium in your coolant system.
That's even if it all (Ca, Mg, and Na) deposits out as Phosphate salts, you're still looking at way less than a 0.001 grams of crud in your cooling system. You could barely see it.
Now if you're using WELL WATER, it is possible that you could have enough contamination that you might be able to actually see. Perhaps.
I used tap water to flush my LS400 coolant for more than 15 years without problems. I flush/replace the coolant with el-cheapo antifreeze Peak/Preston in that car every 3-4 years.
The owner's manual for my Buick says to use a 50/50 mix of clean, drinkable water and Dex-Cool. The owner's manual for my PT says to use distilled water.
In my opinion, if distilled water isn't available, you could get away with tap water but it's best to use distilled.
The shop where I work at also uses tap water in their antifreeze.
To answer your question on why shops use tap water, I think the reason is because it's cheaper and readily available. I don't think shops would have the extra money or space for distilled water.
In my opinion, if distilled water isn't available, you could get away with tap water but it's best to use distilled.
The shop where I work at also uses tap water in their antifreeze.
To answer your question on why shops use tap water, I think the reason is because it's cheaper and readily available. I don't think shops would have the extra money or space for distilled water.
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