Why do "luxury" cars have so many problems?

LouDawg · Feb 25, 2007

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Seems I hear a lot about luxury and higher-end European cars with lots of quality problems.

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Who are you hearing this from? The people that actually buy and own them, or bird cage liner like Consumer Reports?

I've had exactly the same number of problems with my "luxury" gadget laden Jaguar as I have had with my bare bones S-10 and my GTO, and that number would be zero.

The worst, most unreliable, car I ever owned was a Honda. It had nothing to do with gadgets or luxury, because it had none; it had everything to do with the low quality materials and poor design and workmanship, which it had in abundance.

Congratulations on your success with the Jag and sorry for your problems with the Honda. I hope you continue to have good success with the Jaguar. I'm sure there are many folks who have similar stories. But you don't have to read only one magazine (CR) to find ongoing problems with high-end vehicles.

Look, I'm not calling anything "junk", "garbage", or whatever. I'm just saying for the money customers pay for high-end automobiles, they should expect absolute top-of-the-line performance and quality. They SHOULD be better then Honda. They SHOULD be better than Toyota, or whomever. They SHOULD have better materials, like you said. If you spend $100K or more on a car, you should NOT have to spend lots of time and money on repairs. If the owners of these automobiles are satisfied that they're getting the level of quality they deserve for the money they paid, then good for them.

Have a great day!

Win · Feb 25, 2007

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They SHOULD be better then Honda. They SHOULD be better than Toyota, or whomever. They SHOULD have better materials, like you said.

They are and they do. It's not even close. Don't lose sleep over it.

carock · Feb 25, 2007

This was the biggest surprise to me when I started working on exotic cars. A Ferrari is not made as well as a mass market Fiat. In the 50's high end cars WERE made with better materials to higher specifications than common cars. Somewhere in the 60 - 70's this period was over and high end cars simply had more features than their common brethren.Not only do today's high end cars have more features, they also get less development time from the engineers. All this makes for more expensive cars with more problems. I highly criticize Rolls Royce for using VW electronics without upgrading the quality of the components. I think there would be a market for the old Volvos, well made cars with high grade materials and few features.

CBDFrontier06 · Feb 25, 2007

My most recent experiences with newer Mercedes (friends' cars, not mine) is that Mercedes seems to do their cost cutting just beneath the surface. Engines, transmissions, body, paint, and suspension components all seem to be top notch, but the electronics and other components seem to be coming from the lowest bidders. Early 2000 E class cars had a tremendous amount of repairs to window and sunroof motors...they just quit, usually with the windows and roofs open. Same goes for some of the C class electronics. Theres a lot of truth in the statement about engineering time not being spent. They're making beautiful, seemingly high-quality cars because the materials that meet the eye are top notch. The stuff that lerks beneath that lustrous exterior is what will have you returning the service departments...often.

LouDawg · Feb 25, 2007

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They SHOULD be better then Honda. They SHOULD be better than Toyota, or whomever. They SHOULD have better materials, like you said.

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They are and they do. It's not even close. Don't lose sleep over it.

Right...not even close. Gotcha.

The_Jeff · Feb 25, 2007

I wonder if the buyers of these luxury vehicles also have the luxury of flex-time at the office, and the ability to leave early because "I have to pick up my Phantasmo 400e at the shop". This can be said with much pride, that he can (barely) afford the (lease on this) car, as well as that his kingdom at work lets him loose. If a courtesy shuttle shows up at the office or if the boss gets a shiny loaner... so much the better to show off how well he's being taken care of.

IMO this great decline climaxed not when we got PCMs and EFI, because I hate carbs as much as the next guy, but in the late 90's when a simple door pin switch stopped signalling the dome light. Now it triggers an input to the "body control module", a computer that was invented to meet a "need" nobody predicted. Now its talons are in the dash gauges, radio, climate control, security... and it changes every year.

CBDFrontier06 · Feb 25, 2007

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in the late 90's when a simple door pin switch stopped signalling the dome light. Now it triggers an input to the "body control module", a computer that was invented to meet a "need" nobody predicted.

Man, I hear that. I decided to wire some LED floor lighting in my 2006 Frontier to work along with the dome lights and I ASSUMED it would be correct to wire the (+) to the dome light fuse, and the (-) to a ground. NOT. I had to interpret the under-dash wiring diagram for my truck and track down one of 100+ wires coming from the BCM crammed under the dash. Two days of my life I'll never get back.

LouDawg · Feb 25, 2007

From CR's 1.3 million-car customer survey of *RELIABILITY*...cars spanning model years 1997 to 2006. Yes, 1.3 million cars...statistically significant sampling. Based on customer survey responses, not a subjective reviewer's opinion, my Uncle Walters 1973 Mercedes, or "the one that I had was great".

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"UPSCALE CARS"
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Of 20 models included (for Reliability), only the bottom 6 were rated from "worse than average" to "much worse than average" by their owners:
6. BMW 3 Series (AWD) - 12% worse than average
5. Saab 9-5 Sedan - 14% worse than average
4. Volvo S60 (AWD) - 17% worse than average
3. Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6) - 32% worse than average
2. Saab 9-3 - 58% worse than average
1. Jaguar X-Type Sedan - 93% worse than average
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(Note: In the top 14, 8 were Japanese, 2 were American, and 4 were European)

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"LUXURY CARS"
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Of the 23 models included (for Reliability), 16 were rated "worse than average" to "much worse than average" by their owners. Here are the bottom 10:
10. Audi A8 - 37% worse than average
9. Jaguar XJ - 38% worse than average
8. BMW 5-Series Sedan (V8) - 39% worse than average
7. Jaguar S-Type - 46% worse than average
6. BMW 7-Series - 57% worse than average
5. M-B E-Class Sedan (V6, 2006) - 75% worse than average
4. M-B E-Class Sedan (V8, 2006) - 159% worse than average
3. M-B CLS - 163% worse than average
2. M-B S-Class (2006) - 176% worse than average
1. Cadillac STS (V8) - 189% worse than average
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(Note: Of the 7 that were rated as "better than average" by their owners, 6 were Japanese and 1 was European.)

Summary: In the two categories listed (Upscale and Luxury), 15 of the bottom 16 were European, 1 was American. Of ALL the ones rated as "worse than average" in the two categories, 18 out of 22 were European, 2 were Japanese, and 2 American cars.

Is there perhaps some reality to the perception? There's an awful lot of smoke...is there any fire?

Win · Feb 25, 2007

Lou,

What's up here? You thinking of buying a "premium" car and the CR hand wringers got you spooked?

Just buy whatever you want. The odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that whatever you buy, it will be defect and trouble free.

LouDawg · Feb 25, 2007

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Lou,

What's up here? You thinking of buying a "premium" car and the CR hand wringers got you spooked?

Just buy whatever you want. The odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that whatever you buy, it will be defect and trouble free.

Nah, just me over-thinking stuff as usual.

Ray Garlington · Feb 25, 2007

LouDawg: "rated from "worse than average" to "much worse than average" by their owners

The owners merely report any problems experienced in the predefined categories. Consumers reports then determines if it was "worse than average", etc...

In other words, if you asked them how they liked their cars they might say something like "best car I ever drove", and CR would determine that based on their responses, the car was "much worse than average" in a certain category.

windnsea00 · Feb 25, 2007

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This was the biggest surprise to me when I started working on exotic cars. A Ferrari is not made as well as a mass market Fiat.

I hear you there. I have driven and been in a lot of the exotic cars from an Enzo to a Carrera GT to a Vanquish, etc. One of the most disappointing ones to me was the F355...it seriously felt like a kit car. The 360 was a much better piece of machinery overall and the F430 is impressive for Ferrari. Exotic cars can be a pain overall in terms of issues and how finicky they are.

semiretired · Feb 25, 2007

I will gladly unload a Honda onto someone that wants to get rid of their S-Class Benz

deven · Feb 25, 2007

Lexus quality is going south too. Read what customers who own the new 2007 ES350 are going thru here.

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180

LouDawg · Feb 26, 2007

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LouDawg: "rated from "worse than average" to "much worse than average" by their owners

The owners merely report any problems experienced in the predefined categories. Consumers reports then determines if it was "worse than average", etc...

In other words, if you asked them how they liked their cars they might say something like "best car I ever drove", and CR would determine that based on their responses, the car was "much worse than average" in a certain category.

Yes, I understand. It's all relative within the category.

CBDFrontier06 · Feb 26, 2007

They're all becoming a victim of their makers' success. Make em cheap, make em quick, and pack as many techno-doo-dads in them as possible so they will out-gun the other cars segment. Honda's past success with bulletproof cars is a thing of the past because they're not building them 'simple' anymore. My 1986 and 1991 Civic Sis both has one accessory belt to drive the alternator, and that was it. You could see the ground when you looked down into the engine bay. You're lucky to see actual engine when you look under the hood of a current car. Every time you add some electronic gadget to a car, you've increased it's potential for a breakdown. Don't get me wrong....I appreciate the doo-dads when they're executed effectively. Therein lies the problem....engineering and development times are LOW, and production numbers are high. Something's gotta give, and in this case it's quality.

tangojetta · Feb 26, 2007

German engineering and electronics don't mix.

swalve · Feb 26, 2007

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I ASSUMED it would be correct to wire the (+) to the dome light fuse, and the (-) to a ground.

I'm pretty sure fuses aren't generally switched.

The reasons behind the BCM are to simplify wiring and to add the programmability that people are looking for. Yes, it's a single point of failure*. But the simplicity of not having to have full current running through all the individual switches for all the individual things keeps the switches working better, and allows for lower gauge wiring in the control area. Also, it leads to simplicity of design for the engineers. They can use a "black box" method for systems that aren't under their control. The door lock guy doesn't need to know anything about how the lighting system works, he just needs to make sure his stuff alerts the BCM as to what's happening, and the BCM will deal with what lights need to be turned on and off when the doors are unlocked. (Just a generalization.)

*- Single point of failure isn't always a bad thing- yeah, the car won't work if the engine computer goes out. But change out the computer and off you go.

Challenger71 · Feb 26, 2007

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German engineering and electronics don't mix.

Yep,heard of the BMW's 'I' drive issues?

PT1 · Feb 26, 2007

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Seems I hear a lot about luxury and higher-end European cars with lots of quality problems. At least more than what I would consider the average daily driver. Am I wrong? For example, German cars, VW's, MB's, Jags, etc. with lots of electrical problems, oil consumption, and so forth. And American luxury cars too, like Cadillacs and Lincolns, seem to have more than their share of quality problems, as do other higher-end imports.

I'm a CR subscriber and many of these are rated consistently as average to well-below average. I know CR is only one source and I'm not saying they are the final word on quality, but I seem to hear it a lot on BITOG in the course of other discussions, too.

Just for example, here is some interesting info from the current CR ratings. Of these higher-end brands, here are the number of models CR "recommends" or has as a "best bet" versus all the models they've reviewed in each brand. (I made bold the ones I thought stood out or surprised me.)
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BMW: 4 of 8
Cadillac: 2 of 6
Hummer: 0 of 2
Jaguar: 0 of 4
Land Rover: 0 of 5
Lincoln: 2 of 6
Mercedes: 0 of 11
Porsche: 1 of 4
Saab: 2 of 4
VW: 0 of 7
Volvo: 2 of 7

(Amazingly, only 1 out of 31 of the models in bold were "recommended"! That fascinates me!)

In contrast, here are some others:
===========================
Acura: 5 of 6
Audi: 4 of 7
Buick: 2 of 6
Chevy: 5 of 21
Chrysler: 1 of 7
Dodge: 1 of 12
Ford: 6 of 18
GMC: 1 of 10
Honda: 9 of 10
Hyundai: 4 of 9
Jeep: 1 of 6
Kia: 3 of 8
Lexus: 5 of 8
Mazda: 5 of 10
Mercury: 3 of 6
Mitsubishi: 2 of 7
Nissan: 5 of 12
Pontiac: 2 of 8
Saturn: 0 of 6
Subaru: 6 of 6
Suzuki: 0 of 6
Toyota: 13 of 16

If there IS something to it, why do the owners of these higher-end cars not seem to care? Are they willing to pay for cutting-edge technologies, high performance/luxury, and status at the expense of inordinately high maintenance costs? I'm not criticizing...I'm just curious.

Also, I'm not saying all of these cars are bad...it just seems they should be better-made than the average cars. But that doesn't seem to be the case, at least in my humble observations. Seems they should create MORE pleasure for their owners...not less.

You are NOT imagining this because it's true...

I had a Sr. Exec from DCX tell me once that the best values in Detroit were the mid-range vehicles that had about 2/3 of the luxury options.......like a loaded up Chevy Impala etc. boy was he ever right about that...

Why do "luxury" cars have so many problems?

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