where is a list of oils

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Yes, there is a list:

List of oils by the base-oil-quality index (BOQI)

Originally Posted By: Shannow
We've already established that your BOQI has about as much relevance to engine oil as the shininess of the foil seal.

Your BOQI doesn't even give the same BOQI to 3 Mobil spectrasyn basestocks, or six oils made out of them exclusively (i.e. 100% synthetic basestocks).

FWIW I agree the BOQI is a bunch of nonsense. But since I only have a BSME (with a minor in chemistry) and not a PhD I'm sure you don't care what I think.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Yes, there is a list:

List of oils by the base-oil-quality index (BOQI)

Originally Posted By: Shannow
We've already established that your BOQI has about as much relevance to engine oil as the shininess of the foil seal.

Your BOQI doesn't even give the same BOQI to 3 Mobil spectrasyn basestocks, or six oils made out of them exclusively (i.e. 100% synthetic basestocks).

FWIW I agree the BOQI is a bunch of nonsense. But since I only have a BSME (with a minor in chemistry) and not a PhD I'm sure you don't care what I think.


Did I read this right? Amsoil has nothing in the top (14) 5w’s … that’s got me suspicious right there …

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I think oil companies should definitely tell what group base stock they use,as people who are spending their money buying their products should know what they’re buying.

It's like buying a CPU and needing to know what it's made of, as if that was some kind of a determinant of its performance rather than benchmark tests.

But I can see how some manufacturers will advertise that their CPU is diamond plated, just to make it sound more special from a marketing perspective.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I think oil companies should definitely tell what group base stock they use,as people who are spending their money buying their products should know what they’re buying.

It's like buying a CPU and needing to know what it's made of, as if that was some kind of a determinant of its performance rather than benchmark tests.

But I can see how some manufacturers will advertise that their CPU is diamond plated, just to make it sound more special from a marketing perspective.



I’m still learning the use of “meh” … but starting with that would lead in for some Redline motor oil runs posted here … and I’ll still buy RL for some applications like X-fer case etc …

 

[Gokhan]

As much as some here try to discredit it, all base-oil researchers uses the plot of NOACK vs. CCS to discuss the base-oil quality. They are inversely proportional. What I do is to simply to multiply them, as what you would do with inversely proportional quantities, and the resultant quantity describes the overall base-oil quality. There is neither magic nor nonsense here. If you go through the list, known PAO oils come at the top, followed by known GTL, known Group III+, known Group III, known Group II, ..., in that order. For 5w30, the lowest allowable NOACK and CCS are 15% and 6,600 cP, resulting in the lowest-allowable BOQI (for 5w30) = 20.

Here is a such plot from a SK Energy higher-VI Group III YUBASE presentation (link). As you see, NOACK*CCS directly gives the base-oil quality (Groups IIIa, IIIb, IIIc, IIId, III+++++ (new YUBASE), GTL, and PAO, in the increasing order of quality).

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Did I read this right? Amsoil has nothing in the top (14) 5w’s … that’s got me suspicious right there …

Of course, Amsoil Signature Series come at the very top because they use the most PAO. Amsoil OE is an ordinary cheap Group III synthetic.

The legendary "old" Pennzoil Ultra, whatever its base-oil composition was, has long been discontinued.

My list doesn't have them because PQIA didn't have the data, and I calculated what's below later using the Amsoil data:

Code:
BOQI DV-30 NOACK Date Oil



79.2 3,827 6.60 2013 Pennzoil Ultra™ 5w30 API SN ILSAC GF-5 (PQIA data, discontinued)

79.2 4,008 6.30 2017 Amsoil Signature Series 5W-20 (Amsoil data, 2017 formula)

77.4 3,398 7.60 2012 Amsoil Signature Series 5w30 (PQIA data, 2012 formula)

67.4 3,954 7.50 2017 Amsoil Signature Series 5w30 (Amsoil data, 2017 formula)

37.1 4,945 10.90 2013 Amsoil OE 5w30 API SN ILSAC GF-5 (PQIA data, 2013 formula)

? ? ? 2018 Reformulated Amsoil Signature Series 5W-20 (Amsoil data, 2018 formula)

? ? ? 2018 Reformulated Amsoil Signature Series 5w30 (Amsoil data, 2018 formula)

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
As much as some here try to discredit it, all oil researchers uses the plot of NOACK vs. CCS to discuss the base-oil quality. They are inversely proportional. What I do is to simply to multiply them, as what you would do with inversely proportional quantities, and the resultant quantity describes the overall base-oil quality. There is neither magic nor nonsense here. If you go through the list, known PAO oils come at the top, followed by known GTL, known Group III+, known Group III, known Group II, ..., in that order. For 5w30, the lowest allowable NOACK and CCS are 15% and 6,600 cP, resulting in the lowest-allowable BOQI (for 5w30) = 20.

Here is a such plot from a SK Energy higher-VI Group III YUBASE presentation (link). As you see, NOACK*CCS directly gives the base-oil quality (Groups IIIa, IIIb, IIIc, IIId, III+++++ (new YUBASE), GTL, and PAO, in the increasing order of quality).

You may have noticed they used about 10 other properties in that presentation to convey the performance of the base oil as well. The relationship of CCS to NOACK was 1 of 12 other properties they highlighted including:

• Viscosity index
• Chemical composition
• Low temperature viscosity
• Solvency
• HTHS
• Seal compatibility
• Frictional characteristics
• Film thickness
• Dispersancy
• Oxidation
• Corrosion resistance

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
As much as some here try to discredit it, all oil researchers uses the plot of NOACK vs. CCS to discuss the base-oil quality. They are inversely proportional. What I do is to simply to multiply them, as what you would do with inversely proportional quantities, and the resultant quantity describes the overall base-oil quality. There is neither magic nor nonsense here. If you go through the list, known PAO oils come at the top, followed by known GTL, known Group III+, known Group III, known Group II, ..., in that order. For 5w30, the lowest allowable NOACK and CCS are 15% and 6,600 cP, resulting in the lowest-allowable BOQI (for 5w30) = 20.

Here is a such plot from a SK Energy higher-VI Group III YUBASE presentation (link). As you see, NOACK*CCS directly gives the base-oil quality (Groups IIIa, IIIb, IIIc, IIId, III+++++ (new YUBASE), GTL, and PAO, in the increasing order of quality).

You may have noticed they used about 10 other properties in that presentation to convey the performance of the base oil as well. The relationship of CCS to NOACK was 1 of 12 other properties they highlighted including:

• Viscosity index
• Chemical composition
• Low temperature viscosity
• Solvency
• HTHS
• Seal compatibility
• Frictional characteristics
• Film thickness
• Dispersancy
• Oxidation
• Corrosion resistance

VI, chemical composition, low-temperature viscosity, frictional properties, film thickness, and oxidation are directly correlated with NOACK*CCS. So, that's at least seven out of twelve for you.

Besides, the main point was that NOACK*CCS correlates with the API Group number, which correlates with many of these quantities. No one is trying to determine every single property of a base oil through a single quantity.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Did I read this right? Amsoil has nothing in the top (14) 5w’s … that’s got me suspicious right there …

Of course, Amsoil Signature Series come at the very top because they use the most PAO. Amsoil OE is an ordinary cheap Group III synthetic.

The legendary "old" Pennzoil Ultra, whatever its base-oil composition was, has long been discontinued.

My list doesn't have them because PQIA didn't have the data, and I calculated what's below later using the Amsoil data:

Code:
BOQI DV-30 NOACK Date Oil



79.2 3,827 6.60 2013 Pennzoil Ultra™ 5w30 API SN ILSAC GF-5 (PQIA data, discontinued)

79.2 4,008 6.30 2017 Amsoil Signature Series 5W-20 (Amsoil data, 2017 formula)

77.4 3,398 7.60 2012 Amsoil Signature Series 5w30 (PQIA data, 2012 formula)

67.4 3,954 7.50 2017 Amsoil Signature Series 5w30 (Amsoil data, 2017 formula)

37.1 4,945 10.90 2013 Amsoil OE 5w30 API SN ILSAC GF-5 (PQIA data, 2013 formula)

? ? ? 2018 Reformulated Amsoil Signature Series 5W-20 (Amsoil data, 2018 formula)

? ? ? 2018 Reformulated Amsoil Signature Series 5w30 (Amsoil data, 2018 formula)


The legend bought PAO from CVX …

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
that are commonly for sale, that shows which oils are in which group. I searched, can not find a listing?
are most oils are in group II? Some in Group III??

Yes, there is a list:

List of oils by the base-oil-quality index (BOQI)





Most of the oils in this list have been reformulated or even discontinued. This list is way out of date.

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
As much as some here try to discredit it, all oil researchers uses the plot of NOACK vs. CCS to discuss the base-oil quality. They are inversely proportional. What I do is to simply to multiply them, as what you would do with inversely proportional quantities, and the resultant quantity describes the overall base-oil quality. There is neither magic nor nonsense here. If you go through the list, known PAO oils come at the top, followed by known GTL, known Group III+, known Group III, known Group II, ..., in that order. For 5w30, the lowest allowable NOACK and CCS are 15% and 6,600 cP, resulting in the lowest-allowable BOQI (for 5w30) = 20.

Here is a such plot from a SK Energy higher-VI Group III YUBASE presentation (link). As you see, NOACK*CCS directly gives the base-oil quality (Groups IIIa, IIIb, IIIc, IIId, III+++++ (new YUBASE), GTL, and PAO, in the increasing order of quality).

You may have noticed they used about 10 other properties in that presentation to convey the performance of the base oil as well. The relationship of CCS to NOACK was 1 of 12 other properties they highlighted including:

• Viscosity index
• Chemical composition
• Low temperature viscosity
• Solvency
• HTHS
• Seal compatibility
• Frictional characteristics
• Film thickness
• Dispersancy
• Oxidation
• Corrosion resistance

VI, chemical composition, low-temperature viscosity, frictional properties, film thickness, and oxidation are directly correlated with NOACK*CCS. So, that's at least seven out of twelve for you.

Besides, the main point was that NOACK*CCS correlates with the API Group number, which correlates with many of these quantities. No one is trying to determine every single property of a base oil through a single quantity.

I can see how a few of the ones you listed (low-temp vis and chemical composition) are related to either CCS or NOACK, but can you explain how they correlate to the relationship between CCS and NOACK?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
I can see how a few of the ones you listed (low-temp vis and chemical composition) are related to either CCS or NOACK, but can you explain how they correlate to the relationship between CCS and NOACK?

The evidence for the connection between the (CCS, NOACK) function space and base-oil quality is mainly empirical. If you assume NOACK = b/CCS, where b is a constant, b decreases empirically with the base-oil quality, base-oil quality referring to things like the API group number and viscosity index (VI). For example, see the following plots.

A later publication (link) from SK Energy -- notice the emphasis on the base-oil quality while using the (CCS, NOACK) space:

Link to more SK Energy YUBASE articles

Chevron's plots (from Rosenbaum's (literally) "base-oil-quality presentation" [link]) in the (CCS, NOACK) space for different API group numbers:

 

[PlzRepond]

Google.com

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist

I can see how a few of the ones you listed (low-temp vis and chemical composition) are related to either CCS or NOACK, but can you explain how they correlate to the relationship between CCS and NOACK?


Gokhan claims that his BOQI predicts hydrolytic stability too...and is the inherent "pressure" required to separate oil molecules.

 

[nap]

There’s more to oil “quality” than CCS.

We all heard the stories on how most engine wear happens at cold startup and how a 0W oil would be so helpful.

Yet UOA after UOA the 0W30 oils failed to impress when compared with good old 5W30.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: nap
There’s more to oil “quality” than CCS.

We all heard the stories on how most engine wear happens at cold startup and how a 0W oil would be so helpful.

Yet UOA after UOA the 0W30 oils failed to impress when compared with good old 5W30.

The list is for NOACK multiplied by CCS, not NOACK or CCS alone. Low CCS results in high NOACK, therefore not necessarily low NOACK*CCS.

What 0W-30? The only 0w30 you can get off the shelf is M1 AFE 0W-30. You made a general statement about a viscosity grade, for which there is hardly any product out there. By the way, Euro 0w30 such as GC 0w30 is not really 0w30 but effectively 0W-40, as it has HTHSV > 3.5 cP.

Now, to the "failed to impress" part, Blackstone doesn't agree.

Amsoil 0w30 Honda S2000 39,524 mi OCI w/bypass

 

[OilUzer]

Regarding the BOQI (Yours?/Chevron) new? parameter/index, i am just curious and not trying to rehash the debate ...

what is the value for M1 EP 5Wx30 and 10Wx30? you had the PP values but not m1 ep.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OilUzer
Regarding the BOQI (Yours?/Chevron) new? parameter/index, i am just curious and not trying to rehash the debate ...

what is the value for M1 EP 5Wx30 and 10Wx30? you had the PP values but not m1 ep.

You need the NOACK and CCS data. Unless PQIA tests the oil or the manufacturer chooses to disclose them, neither of which is the case for M1 EP, you can't do the calculation.

Interestingly, M1 AP 5w30 in particular (not other M1 AP viscosity grades) didn't do well in BOQI, but this is in full agreement with both the MSDS and A_Harman index that M1 AP 5w30 is inferior to both M1 vanilla 5w30 and M1 EP 5w30.

M1 5w30 SN: 20 -30% PAO, A_Harman index = 0.86, BOQI = 50
M1 EP 5w30 SN: 20 - 30% PAO, 1 - 5% Group III, A_Harman index = 0.87, BOQI = ?
M1 AP 5w30 SN: 5 - 10% PAO, A_Harman index = 0.84, BOQI = 45

(Compositions from ExxonMobil MSDS)

I would guess M1 EP 5w30 BOQI ~ 52 - 55 but we don't have the data.

Therefore, BOQI [= 2,000,000/(NOACK*CCS) for xW-30] is a very reliable estimate for the base-oil quality/composition. If you have the NOACK and CCS data, calculate it and know before you buy!

(Note: Comparing BOQI across viscosity grades is tricky though. You get a much more reliable comparison when you compare within the same viscosity grade.)

MSDS composition data for other M1 viscosity grades and flavors:

M1 AFE 0W-20 SN: 30 - 40% PAO, 10 - 20% GTL, 30 - 40% Group III
M1 EP 0W-20 SN: 60 - 70% PAO
M1 AP 0W-20 SN: 60 - 70% PAO
TGMO 0W-20 SN: 80 - 90% Group III

M1 5W-20 SN: 40 - 50% GTL, 1 - 5% Group III

M1 AFE 0w30 SN: 10 - 20% PAO, 20 - 30% GTL, 30 - 40% Group III

 

[OilUzer]

Thanks!
Yesterday i was checking m1 ep data on Mobil website and didn't see noack numbers ...
Interesting that 5wx30 and 10wx30 numbers are very similar except for VI obviously.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
[M1 5w30 SN: 20 -30% PAO, A_Harman index = 0.86, BOQI = 50
M1 EP 5w30 SN: 20 - 30% PAO, 1 - 5% Group III, A_Harman index = 0.87, BOQI = ?
M1 AP 5w30 SN: 5 - 10% PAO, A_Harman index = 0.84, BOQI = 45

(Compositions from ExxonMobil MSDS)

I would guess M1 EP 5w30 BOQI ~ 52 - 55 but we don't have the data.


But as you said, only valid to 1 sig figure...they are the same.