What is the iron issue with Mobil 1?

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Yes. They know exactly how much Fe they can erode/dissolve and get away with it.





j/k

Only thing of it is the two used oil analysis I did last year showed low iron with Mobil 1 oil. And many others show low iron as well(as if it means anything). Mobil 1 oil keeps engines very clean, if used exclusely. More wear comes from dirty engines than ever comes from a few PPM.My sons Ranger has 333,000 miles on it now, all on Mobil 1 10w30 at 10-13,000mile OCI. It still runs great and the engine must be clean because the oil never gets darker than dark amber.


(joke: "he took the bait. Now can I reel him in?")


Oh ..and you have a couple of low Fe used oil analysis with Mobil 1. I've seen hundreds with more Fe ..I'd say that your two data points are flukes. Maybe you got lucky and they left out the special sauce in your Big M.

 

[JAG]

The Ford Focus used oil analysis I recall show it to be easy on oil and not spit out much used oil analysis-detected wear metals.

The magnets in my VW 1.8T's oil stream never did show Mobil 1 0W-40 or 5W-40 to have more metal on them than there was from other oils that generally show lower iron wear metals in used oil analysis. I suggest others use magnets for ferrous wear detection as well. They catch particle size ranges bigger than a used oil analysis does and they are constantly picking up ferrous particles while the engine is running. If there was a serious issue with iron wear, the magnets would show it, in my opinion. I have seen some freaky-large ferrous particles on the drain plug magnet. Funny thing is that was not while using Mobil 1.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: JAG
The Ford Focus used oil analysis I recall show it to be easy on oil and not spit out much used oil analysis-detected wear metals.

The magnets in my VW 1.8T's oil stream never did show Mobil 1 0W-40 or 5W-40 to have more metal on them than there was from other oils that generally show lower iron wear metals in used oil analysis. I suggest others use magnets for ferrous wear detection as well. They catch particle size ranges bigger than a used oil analysis does and they are constantly picking up ferrous particles while the engine is running. If there was a serious issue with iron wear, the magnets would show it, in my opinion. I have seen some freaky-large ferrous particles on the drain plug magnet. Funny thing is that was not while using Mobil 1.


Courtesy Parts sells a magnetic drain plug for the Z32. Are those a worthwhile cheap lil investment? It`d definitely be interesting looking at one when doing oil changes. i`ve never known anyone who`s used one.

http://www.courtesyparts.com/magnetic-oil-pan-drain-plug-p-613160.html?cPath=882_1062_4208&

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Courtesy Parts sells a magnetic drain plug for the Z32. Are those a worthwhile cheap lil investment? It`d definitely be interesting looking at one when doing oil changes. i`ve never known anyone who`s used one.

http://www.courtesyparts.com/magnetic-oil-pan-drain-plug-p-613160.html?cPath=882_1062_4208&

Yes, go for it. It is a great quick way to do a quick check for ferrous wear. You can do as little as look at it and clean it or do more and wipe it on a piece of paper or paper towel and start a wipe collection. You can do even more by carefully getting the oil off the tip before wiping the particles off to get a clearer view of them. Super geek territory which I'm guilty of is looking at the wipings with a microscope to see their shape, size, and population density.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: JAG
looking at the wipings with a microscope to see their shape, size, and population density.


^^Now THAT would be interesting and fun! I`d love to see what used motor oil looks like under a microscope.

 

[SilverC6]

Wear.....

Very simply, if the oil doesn't have iron in the formulation when new, it has to be coming from the engine.

 

[ADFD1]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Wear.....

Very simply, if the oil doesn't have iron in the formulation when new, it has to be coming from the engine.


Wear! My feelings exactly. Unless they blend iron into the add pack it is coming from somewhere. I really don't buy into it doing a super cleaning job and it is freeing iron caught up in sludge. Sorry, I just don't buy that. JMO opinions vary, that's mine.

Now if I saw a slight iron spike with the addition of MMO or A-rX which were designed to clean I would buy into that.

AD

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Wear.....

Very simply, if the oil doesn't have iron in the formulation when new, it has to be coming from the engine.


Wear! My feelings exactly. Unless they blend iron into the add pack it is coming from somewhere. I really don't buy into it doing a super cleaning job and it is freeing iron caught up in sludge. Sorry, I just don't buy that. JMO opinions vary, that's mine.

Now if I saw a slight iron spike with the addition of MMO or A-rX which were designed to clean I would buy into that.

AD


Well, two thoughts. First, why not a reading from material left behind from other oils? If the owner was previously using an oil that left varnish and sludge in the engine, then presumably that left behind material would include what had been in the previous oil as it broke down. I find it hard to believe that such a previous oil, while doing a poor job holding up (i.e. breaking down, was doing a perfect job isolating all iron parts from wear, whereas fresh M1 can't).

Second, wear is not the only source of metal in the oil. It can also be a result of corrosion (not a good thing either), or other reactions with parts in the engine.

I would like to see the same engine showing elevated Fe over several used oil analysis before I concluded unconditionally that the elevation can be set at M1's feet.

 

[Gary Allan]

Part of this speculation is supported by the increase in elementals at a certain mileage point. It suggests some seating or unseating of AW films. It was in one of those studies that has an agenda (one that I agree with ) to extend oil changes beyond 3000 miles. The old "used oil produces less wear than new oil" thingies. The real evidence only showed that elementals increased sharply at some mileage (2-3k).

MolaKule has told us that it's chemical reaction that causes the higher Fe in M1 in some formation. I don't think it needs to come from a rubbing or otherwise wearing surface.

When it comes to UOA ..less is always better and just like the lint trap in my clothes dryer, I won't know which piece of clothing the various fibers came from ...the more I see, the more I know my close are wearing out.

I hope PQI isn't an arm and a leg.

 

[element_42]

Originally Posted By: crinkles
Stevie - If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...


...then it must be a constipated squirrel with a broken leg that got some tree sap on it's fur that some duck feathers got stuck to, and the squirrel is really just cleaning up the old feathers left behind by the duck...... yeah..

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: element_42
Originally Posted By: crinkles
Stevie - If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...


...then it must be a constipated squirrel with a broken leg that got some tree sap on it's fur that some duck feathers got stuck to, and the squirrel is really just cleaning up the old feathers left behind by the duck...... yeah..


I noticed over in the Maxlife thread that you haven't even figured out how to spell Mobil 1 yet. . . Obviously, a "go to" expert for what this product can and can not do. . .

Hint: "Mobile" is a city on the Alabama gulf coast -- you don't put it in your engine.

 

[tig1]

The reason I didn't show a couple PPM more iron than others is M1 is the only oil I ever use. You high iron guys switch differnt brands of oil. Then the M1 goes in and cleans up the mess.

 

[element_42]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: element_42
Originally Posted By: crinkles
Stevie - If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...


...then it must be a constipated squirrel with a broken leg that got some tree sap on it's fur that some duck feathers got stuck to, and the squirrel is really just cleaning up the old feathers left behind by the duck...... yeah..


I noticed over in the Maxlife thread that you haven't even figured out how to spell Mobil 1 yet. . . Obviously, a "go to" expert for what this product can and can not do. . .

Hint: "Mobile" is a city on the Alabama gulf coast -- you don't put it in your engine.


Come on, really? What are you trying to bust my nuts for? Especially since you didnt pick up on the humorus aspect of the entire post.

EDIT: analogous to the MaxLife/sludge post, the squirrel post too is also a joke. Sorry, I never really did see a sap covered squirrel with duck feathers on it. Just putting that out there.....................

 

[ekpolk]

OK, perhaps I came down a tad hard. I certainly hope you did not see such a squirrel -- that would likely indicate that an adjustment in meds is in order. You just have to understand how long we've been seeing this Mobil/Mobile thing -- it's enough to put me on meds.

In all seriousness, though, while I get that M1 isn't for everyone, and we don't require people to like it, of course, it still has performed beautifully for huge numbers of users. I used it from the mid-80s until I decided to try a few others a few years ago. I never had any hint of trouble, or even varnish -- none. Just like millions of others.

By all means, if it's not your thing, don't use it. But don't slam it while turning a blind eye to its performance record.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
OK, perhaps I came down a tad hard. I certainly hope you did not see such a squirrel -- that would likely indicate that an adjustment in meds is in order. You just have to understand how long we've been seeing this Mobil/Mobile thing -- it's enough to put me on meds.

In all seriousness, though, while I get that M1 isn't for everyone, and we don't require people to like it, of course, it still has performed beautifully for huge numbers of users. I used it from the mid-80s until I decided to try a few others a few years ago. I never had any hint of trouble, or even varnish -- none. Just like millions of others.

By all means, if it's not your thing, don't use it. But don't slam it while turning a blind eye to its performance record.

A men.

 

[element_42]

ekpolk, it's all good. In fact, my satirical (no, not bashing or slamming) posts are directly targeted towards this
Originally Posted By: tig1
...Then the M1 goes in and cleans up the mess.
type of illogical excuse-making for Mobil 1, which is beginning to come across as a theme since that has been reiterated over and over to anyone wanting answers to the elevated Fe content in the used Mobil 1 oils. I should have expected a poor reception for this type of "dark" humor, as Mobil seems to be a site sponsor.

 

[JHZR2]

that was long the explanation for redline oils - the esters clean up junk especially well, and this shows up as elevated wear metals.

 

[OVERKILL]

element_42, from page 11:

Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
Unfortunately, oil analysis is not very good at distinguishing wear between different formulations. Emission spectroscopy has a particle size limit of 3 to 5 microns, which means that particles larger will not be detected. Unfortunately, most serious wear issues generate wear particles in the range of 5 - 15 microns. Oil analysis only measures about 15-20% of the particles in the oil, and changing form one formulation to another is likely to change the particle size profile. Usually formulations with more antiwear additive will more aggressively react with the metal surface and when rubbing occurs will produce smaller particles. Generally, more antiwear additives will give greater iron spectrochemical numbers, even though the total iron can be lower. There are other techniques such as ferrography, which looks at the wear particles under a microscope, but now we are talking about analysis many times more expensive than spectrochemical analysis. The oils with the better spectrochemical numbers will be much less chemically active on the metal surface, so they will be less able to handle more severe loads. There is always a trade-off between chemical wear and adhesive wear. Chemical wear is the very small particles and soluble metals which is identified in the spectrochemical analysis, while adhesive wear is many orders of magnitude greater than the chemical wear, but much is not identified in spectrochemical analysis. But if you were using spectrochemical analysis as a maintenance tool and started seeing a deviation over the baseline, then you would know something was wrong.

It is very difficult for an individual to be able to look at numbers which will conclusively determine the best formulation, you simply have to rely on the reputation of the marketer and whether you trust the marketer's technical expertise. With most of our formulations, we rely on major additive manufacturers to do the basic API sequence testing to determine criteria such as antiwear, dispersancy, cleanliness, etc. All the oil companies rely on the additive manufacturers to do the engine test work. We will take their basic package and add additional antiwear, friction modifiers, oxidation inhibitors or whatever can be safely modified to provide superior performance. Some of the bench tests such as 4-Ball can be useful, but a blind adherance to optimize with one single test will result a less-than-optimum performing lubricant. There are always trade-offs in engine oils, and we try to enhance antiwear and friction reduction at higher temperatures and loads, while trying to maintain performance at lower and normal loads and temperatures.

Regards,

Roy


This was a reply from Redline.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: element_42
Originally Posted By: crinkles
Stevie - If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...


...then it must be a constipated squirrel with a broken leg that got some tree sap on it's fur that some duck feathers got stuck to, and the squirrel is really just cleaning up the old feathers left behind by the duck...... yeah..

Thanks for the laugh... It's 12:47am and I'm reading this LMAO in my kitchen.

 

[ottotheclown]

Suppose the squirrel was up in Alaska and there was a oil spill, and the feathers were stuck on him, because of Exxon would his nuts contain high FE/ just wondering out loud.