... you put oil formulated for a high mileage engine in a brand new car?
What happens when...
- Thread starter Yuk
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the answer is, nothing.
High mileage engine oil is formulated with the following characteristics:
(1)additional seal sweller to swell up your seals, in case you suffering from oil leaks
(2) thicker oil or a blend of GpII+ to resist high temp boil off or burn off better, in case your engine starts to burn a bit of oil
Q.
High mileage engine oil is formulated with the following characteristics:
(1)additional seal sweller to swell up your seals, in case you suffering from oil leaks
(2) thicker oil or a blend of GpII+ to resist high temp boil off or burn off better, in case your engine starts to burn a bit of oil
Q.
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Originally Posted By: Quest
the answer is, nothing.
High mileage engine oil is formulated with the following characteristics:
(1)additional seal sweller to swell up your seals, in case you suffering from oil leaks
(2) thicker oil or a blend of GpII+ to resist high temp boil off or burn off better, in case your engine starts to burn a bit of oil
Q.
Exactly what I was about to say. Absolutely nada.
the answer is, nothing.
High mileage engine oil is formulated with the following characteristics:
(1)additional seal sweller to swell up your seals, in case you suffering from oil leaks
(2) thicker oil or a blend of GpII+ to resist high temp boil off or burn off better, in case your engine starts to burn a bit of oil
Q.
Exactly what I was about to say. Absolutely nada.
I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but since HM oils swell seals, isn't it possible for a new seals to be damaged because they aren't in a shrunken state?
Stated another way, is it possible that they could swell to the point of becoming damaged?
Stated another way, is it possible that they could swell to the point of becoming damaged?
They don't so much swell seals as keep them pliable and clean to behave as intended when new.
Originally Posted By: MGregoir
They don't so much swell seals as keep them pliable and clean to behave as intended when new.
Sounds completely plausible, but you are contradicting the posters above. So, what’s the answer, do HM oils swell seals, or do they make old seals pliable again?
They don't so much swell seals as keep them pliable and clean to behave as intended when new.
Sounds completely plausible, but you are contradicting the posters above. So, what’s the answer, do HM oils swell seals, or do they make old seals pliable again?
Well, old seals crust up and shrink. Oil soaking in accounts for as much as 30% of the size of seals. If they varnish and lose that, or are out of shape, they don't hold oil in any more. I think the agents in high mileage oils are certain esters which clean and soak into the seals to help restore that.
Originally Posted By: MGregoir
Well, old seals crust up and shrink. Oil soaking in accounts for as much as 30% of the size of seals. If they varnish and lose that, or are out of shape, they don't hold oil in any more. I think the agents in high mileage oils are certain esters which clean and soak into the seals to help restore that.
So, if HM oils only affect pliability and don't swell seals, you would agree that HM oils are incapable of hurting new seals?
Well, old seals crust up and shrink. Oil soaking in accounts for as much as 30% of the size of seals. If they varnish and lose that, or are out of shape, they don't hold oil in any more. I think the agents in high mileage oils are certain esters which clean and soak into the seals to help restore that.
So, if HM oils only affect pliability and don't swell seals, you would agree that HM oils are incapable of hurting new seals?
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if it bothers you that much , dump it fella.
Jeez-o-peete, it aint gonna do nothin
Jeez-o-peete, it aint gonna do nothin
High mileage oils won't do anything detrimental but they don't give you anything you really need in a brand new engine. As far as lubricants go they are as good or slightly better than any other equivalent service classification oil with extra additives to aid in curing what ails many older vehicles.
Quote:
if it bothers you that much , dump it fella.
Jeez-o-peete, it aint gonna do nothin
The original question may seem like a minor point, but I am also interested in the answer. One reason I enjoy this site is because of learning the science related to the various topics.
I am sure there is a factual answer to the question and I would like to know.
Quote:
So, what’s the answer, do HM oils swell seals, or do they make old seals pliable again?
if it bothers you that much , dump it fella.
Jeez-o-peete, it aint gonna do nothin
The original question may seem like a minor point, but I am also interested in the answer. One reason I enjoy this site is because of learning the science related to the various topics.
I am sure there is a factual answer to the question and I would like to know.
Quote:
So, what’s the answer, do HM oils swell seals, or do they make old seals pliable again?
Originally Posted By: bigjeffie
if it bothers you that much , dump it fella.
Jeez-o-peete, it aint gonna do nothin
Don't be a tool...
Very little of what we talk about on this BITOG thread is of any real importance, anywhere. At no point did I say I was "bothered", all I want is a straight answer without vague assertions. In case you haven’t noticed, we have been give two solidly different answers as to what HM oils do. Don’t you want to know which one is correct?
if it bothers you that much , dump it fella.
Jeez-o-peete, it aint gonna do nothin
Don't be a tool...
I believe the high mileage oils help seals by going in the correct direction, but are not a fix for bad seals.
If you like the bottle, use the oil if it is the proper grade.
If you like the bottle, use the oil if it is the proper grade.
Originally Posted By: Yuk
... you put oil formulated for a high mileage engine in a brand new car?
Would the fact high mileage oils are non-energy conserving have any bearing, as in slightly reduced fuel mileage?
... you put oil formulated for a high mileage engine in a brand new car?
Would the fact high mileage oils are non-energy conserving have any bearing, as in slightly reduced fuel mileage?
I cant say anything about any brand except for Mobil 1, and the M1 HM oils are pretty much as MGreigor has posted.
Compared to their standard 10W-30, the M1 10W-30 HM is actually a heavy duty oil. It has a higher cSt viscosity at both 40C and 100C. It has an HTHS of 3.66 compared the regular 10W-30 HTHS of 3.14. It has 1000 PPM of ZDDP compared to the standard 800 PPM. It has extra antioxidents and extra detergents. It also has extra seal conditioner.
I did a web search(yahoo) on seal conditioners as I took over the service of my Priest's car which had 73,000 at the time and had had only a 5w30 mineral oil that I did not like, since new. You could stick your finger inside the oil fill cap and there was a lot of deposits. Basically, the results of what I learned from that search is that group IV synthetic oils tend to clean the residue of mineral oils from seals, penetrate the seals, and seep. Evidently this was a problem for folk that switched from mineral oils to synthetic oils many years ago when synthetics became widely available. To compensate for this, synthetic oils have seal conditioners to keep the seals pliable.
If you start out with a group IV synthetic(I simply know nothing about group III) your seals will have been getting seal conditioners from day one. If you switch to a synthetic after thousands of miles of mineral oil, the synthetic will clean the mineral oil residue away from the seals, which has been preventing leaks, penetrate the seals which are actually not as pliable as new, and seep. To compensate for this, synthetic HM oils have even more seal conditioner.
I sumply do not know about switching from a standard mineral oil to a high mileage mineral oil.
Compared to their standard 10W-30, the M1 10W-30 HM is actually a heavy duty oil. It has a higher cSt viscosity at both 40C and 100C. It has an HTHS of 3.66 compared the regular 10W-30 HTHS of 3.14. It has 1000 PPM of ZDDP compared to the standard 800 PPM. It has extra antioxidents and extra detergents. It also has extra seal conditioner.
I did a web search(yahoo) on seal conditioners as I took over the service of my Priest's car which had 73,000 at the time and had had only a 5w30 mineral oil that I did not like, since new. You could stick your finger inside the oil fill cap and there was a lot of deposits. Basically, the results of what I learned from that search is that group IV synthetic oils tend to clean the residue of mineral oils from seals, penetrate the seals, and seep. Evidently this was a problem for folk that switched from mineral oils to synthetic oils many years ago when synthetics became widely available. To compensate for this, synthetic oils have seal conditioners to keep the seals pliable.
If you start out with a group IV synthetic(I simply know nothing about group III) your seals will have been getting seal conditioners from day one. If you switch to a synthetic after thousands of miles of mineral oil, the synthetic will clean the mineral oil residue away from the seals, which has been preventing leaks, penetrate the seals which are actually not as pliable as new, and seep. To compensate for this, synthetic HM oils have even more seal conditioner.
I sumply do not know about switching from a standard mineral oil to a high mileage mineral oil.
Originally Posted By: ruralcarrier
Originally Posted By: Yuk
... you put oil formulated for a high mileage engine in a brand new car?
Would the fact high mileage oils are non-energy conserving have any bearing, as in slightly reduced fuel mileage?
Probably not, because I'm not actively seeking to use HM oil. I just want a technically/scientifically, accurate answer as to what the result would be if I was to use this oil in a new engine. The question was prompted by the fact I can currently buy 5W-20 grade, HM oil for less money than the standard variant.
I guess, based on your question, one answer would be that my fuel economy might drop.
Originally Posted By: Yuk
... you put oil formulated for a high mileage engine in a brand new car?
Would the fact high mileage oils are non-energy conserving have any bearing, as in slightly reduced fuel mileage?
Probably not, because I'm not actively seeking to use HM oil. I just want a technically/scientifically, accurate answer as to what the result would be if I was to use this oil in a new engine. The question was prompted by the fact I can currently buy 5W-20 grade, HM oil for less money than the standard variant.
I guess, based on your question, one answer would be that my fuel economy might drop.
Thanks FrankN4. Interesting take on the subject, but it appears your research has generated no information on "seal swelling". I don't understand why no one is able to say definitively, whether, or not HM oils swell seals, and why a new engine wouldn't be adversely affected by this swelling.
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It would not show anything, unless you took micrometer measurements to degrees that are within the dimensional tolerances of the seal as specified by the OEM.
Molakule has provided some very interesting info on seals and seal swelling/shrinkage.
I once heard a snippet of a talk by Red Line's technical VP - I forget his name at the moment - where he stated that variances between different batches of the same seal amounted to a greater dimensional difference than what different levels of oil swelling chemistries would provide.
Any oil has chemistry designed to have appropriate seal-swelling effects. Swelling softens a seal, and shrinking hardens it - those are the same things, essentially. Hardened seals can crack, whereas it is much more difficult for a properly swollen seal to crack, because the molecular bonds themselves are more elastic.
I don't think anybody needs to be worried about excessive swelling of seals unless they are dumping large amounts of concentrated seal swelling chemicals into their engine. The basic nature of seals favors a slightly swollen condition over a slightly shrunken condition, and I don't think I have ever heard of a case in which a seal was swollen by any motor-oil product to such a degree that it compromised function.
Molakule has provided some very interesting info on seals and seal swelling/shrinkage.
I once heard a snippet of a talk by Red Line's technical VP - I forget his name at the moment - where he stated that variances between different batches of the same seal amounted to a greater dimensional difference than what different levels of oil swelling chemistries would provide.
Any oil has chemistry designed to have appropriate seal-swelling effects. Swelling softens a seal, and shrinking hardens it - those are the same things, essentially. Hardened seals can crack, whereas it is much more difficult for a properly swollen seal to crack, because the molecular bonds themselves are more elastic.
I don't think anybody needs to be worried about excessive swelling of seals unless they are dumping large amounts of concentrated seal swelling chemicals into their engine. The basic nature of seals favors a slightly swollen condition over a slightly shrunken condition, and I don't think I have ever heard of a case in which a seal was swollen by any motor-oil product to such a degree that it compromised function.
This is all I found on the Mobil 1 website. It appears that Mobil 1 HM oils are really HDEO oils with extra seal conditioner.
"Mobil 1 High Mileage oils can be used in both newer and older vehicles. In newer vehicles, some of the performance additives included for older vehicles will not be needed but they will not cause any problem in newer vehicles."
"Mobil 1 High Mileage is designed for high mileage vehicles that have been using conventional oils. It's true that most Mobil 1 vehicles with 75,000+ miles should be in excellent condition and would not require some of the Mobil 1 High Mileage benefits. However, most cars on the road today do not use synthetic oils, so we developed this oil specifically for these cars that would benefit from switching off conventional oil."
Can I use Mobil Clean High Mileage in a vehicle where seal leaks are not an issue?
Yes, Mobil Clean High Mileage can still be used. The extra seal conditioner may help prevent a leak later on and will not cause problems in your car.
"Mobil 1 High Mileage oils can be used in both newer and older vehicles. In newer vehicles, some of the performance additives included for older vehicles will not be needed but they will not cause any problem in newer vehicles."
"Mobil 1 High Mileage is designed for high mileage vehicles that have been using conventional oils. It's true that most Mobil 1 vehicles with 75,000+ miles should be in excellent condition and would not require some of the Mobil 1 High Mileage benefits. However, most cars on the road today do not use synthetic oils, so we developed this oil specifically for these cars that would benefit from switching off conventional oil."
Can I use Mobil Clean High Mileage in a vehicle where seal leaks are not an issue?
Yes, Mobil Clean High Mileage can still be used. The extra seal conditioner may help prevent a leak later on and will not cause problems in your car.
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