What exactly is a "Living wage"?

[PandaBear]

Sorry, this is a strawman argument filled with assumptions that I will not address.
It is my belief though that nobody has the right to live comfortably in California if they do not have the assets, or the skill set necessary to earn enough to survive in that desirable but high cost state. If you can't afford to live there, move to where there is a lower cost of living.
The guys in the Home Depot parking lot do fit Dishdude's description above. Paid under the table, no taxes paid, probable documentation issues. And, from what I've heard from homeowners that hired them, crooked as a dog's leg. The few left have probably burned a lot of bridges if they can't get hired with this labor market.

I "know people" who hire them, typically $150-200 / day before pandemic. Some do work honestly some are just useless. From what I heard the middle aged one are the good workers, not the younger ones.

I usually hire the pros (legal reputable businesses) who hire these people themselves (I can't tell them how to run their business), typically they charge $200-400/day labor worth of work, I'm sure they make a cut and they are responsible for screw up, so they know the regulars.

I'm not sure how much ends up in the pocket of these guys, but you are not paying HD parking lot crowd minimum wages either, they have more self worth than McD teens.

 

[JHZR2]

$260 every 3-4 years is not a lot of money today, $30 / mo data plan is not really "that much". Ok you can go $15 / mo minimum but compare to water, electricity, car insurance, etc it is not a lot.

But anyways, like you said nobody deserves anything these days and in the good ole days either. We are all just trying to compete against inflation and the only way to win is to not have too many kids.

$260 is a lot of you’re earning $15/hr, let alone less, and have real expenses to cover. As you note, it’s not a lot compared to electricity, insurance, etc., but an extra bill each month, an extra $260 here and there, does add up.

Assuming they’re not paying any taxes of any kind, $260 takes 17 hours to earn. On top of food, electric, whatever else… mounting gasoline bills, etc.

 

[PandaBear]

$260 is a lot of you’re earning $15/hr, let alone less, and have real expenses to cover. As you note, it’s not a lot compared to electricity, insurance, etc., but an extra bill each month, an extra $260 here and there, does add up.

Assuming they’re not paying any taxes of any kind, $260 takes 17 hours to earn. On top of food, electric, whatever else… mounting gasoline bills, etc.

Like I said, you can use a new $260 iPhone SE for 3 years, 36 months. It cost less than $10 a month and it is a necessity nowadays to have a phone if you want a job.

Nobody likes to pay bill, but some are essential.

 

[dishdude]

It is my belief though that nobody has the right to live comfortably in California if they do not have the assets, or the skill set necessary to earn enough to survive in that desirable but high cost state. If you can't afford to live there, move to where there is a lower cost of living.

But the people that have the money to live there want their trash picked up, they want to be waited on in restaurants, they want grocery stores they can shop at. The people working those jobs need to be able to afford to live there with the basic necessities in life. No they won't have the latest iPhone, a new car or be taking exotic vacations, but they need a roof over their head and the ability to be able to afford a shopping trip at Aldi.

 

[JHZR2]

Like I said, you can use a new $260 iPhone SE for 3 years, 36 months. It cost less than $10 a month and it is a necessity nowadays to have a phone if you want a job.

Nobody likes to pay bill, but some are essential.

like I said, the iPhone was an analog. We are talking living wage for menial jobs. Does one really need an iPhone to serve burgers? And what other frivolous things are consuming money???

For someone earning a minimum wage, everything should be scrutinized, and it should be realized that one doesn’t get everything they want/think they need.

 

[PandaBear]

But the people that have the money to live there want their trash picked up, they want to be waited on in restaurants, they want grocery stores they can shop at. The people working those jobs need to be able to afford to live there with the basic necessities in life. No they won't have the latest iPhone, a new car or be taking exotic vacations, but they need a roof over their head and the ability to be able to afford a shopping trip at Aldi.

"Around here", we have a lot of lower income people living in dangerous neighborhood (but they are rapidly gentrifying as well due to immigrant engineers "roommating" there now). The ones I know drive 90s Toyota with 300k miles, sorta banged up.

Some live 2 hrs away, 1 janitor I know work 2 full time jobs and sleep in a Cadillac Escalade between shifts, only to go home during weekends.

This is why dollar menu is now $3 here now.

I guess 4 hrs commute is "living wage"? or 4 people in 2 bedroom apartment? I don't know.

 

[dishdude]

"Around here", we have a lot of lower income people living in dangerous neighborhood (but they are rapidly gentrifying as well due to immigrant engineers "roommating" there now). The ones I know drive 90s Toyota with 300k miles, sorta banged up.

Some live 2 hrs away, 1 janitor I know work 2 full time jobs and sleep in a Cadillac Escalade between shifts, only to go home during weekends.

This is why dollar menu is now $3 here now.

I guess 4 hrs commute is "living wage"? or 4 people in 2 bedroom apartment? I don't know.

To me a living wage is a 40-48 hour work week and you can afford the bare necessities in the area you're working in (or a reasonable commute). A modest apartment and utilities including basic internet, a used car or public transportation, a basic cell phone plan, and basic groceries like Aldi. You're not going on any exotic vacations, shopping at Whole Foods, or dining out. But you can afford a roof over your head and what you need to survive. That pay will fluctuate wildly depending on the area, but I don't think that's too much of an ask for that person to be paid enough to survive. I have no problem paying more for something knowing the people working behind the scenes to provide it to me can afford to live.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

But the people that have the money to live there want their trash picked up, they want to be waited on in restaurants, they want grocery stores they can shop at. The people working those jobs need to be able to afford to live there with the basic necessities in life. No they won't have the latest iPhone, a new car or be taking exotic vacations, but they need a roof over their head and the ability to be able to afford a shopping trip at Aldi.

I agree 100%. I would venture to guess that pay for the jobs you list bears no resemblance to minimum wage in the Bay area. I suspect market conditions are such that actual pay is a multiple of minimum wage. But it still would be a minimal existence, just one with good weather.
I'm originally from a high cost area of California. I'm retired and could move back. Trouble is, it would take all my discretionary income for the increased taxes and costs associated with the place. I'd rather have the hot summers and live well where I am.

 

[PandaBear]

To me a living wage is a 40-48 hour work week and you can afford the bare necessities in the area you're working in (or a reasonable commute). A modest apartment and utilities including basic internet, a used car or public transportation, a basic cell phone plan, and basic groceries like Aldi. You're not going on any exotic vacations, shopping at Whole Foods, or dining out. But you can afford a roof over your head and what you need to survive. That pay will fluctuate wildly depending on the area, but I don't think that's too much of an ask for that person to be paid enough to survive. I have no problem paying more for something knowing the people working behind the scenes to provide it to me can afford to live.

That would probably be around 60k-120k per earner depending on location here. Maybe 60k if you live in Vallejo or Salinas and commute to Mountain View, or 120k if you actually live within Mountain View and work in Mountain View.

 

[dishdude]

That would probably be around 60k-120k per earner depending on location here. Maybe 60k if you live in Vallejo or Salinas and commute to Mountain View, or 120k if you actually live within Mountain View and work in Mountain View.

It is what it is. Nothing is free.

 

[Wolf359]

Thus the use of the term “analog”.

You forget the monthly cost of a data plan on top of the financed cost of the phone as soon as someone wants something fancier. Thus the term frivolities.

But again… analog.

Yeah but poor people aren't that picky and it doesn't have to be an iphone. I have a guy using those $30-$40 android phones from walmart and he's perfectly happy with it. As a matter of fact he doesn't want an iphone because every few month he ends up smashing his or damaging it somehow so it's much cheaper to just buy a $30-$40 replacement phone.

 

[dihi22]

Like the title says, what is a "Living wage".

Had a recent discussion with a parent and their child is a movie ticket taker at a theater. The parent is mad because pay is just above minimum wage and not a "Living wage". I didn't ask because this person has a persecution complex and didn't want to hear it as to why they were thinking that then I also pondered what exactly is a living wage. I can't see a person saying "Your movie is the second door on the right" getting $20 an hour but that's just me.

A living wage is what everyone willing to put in a hard days work used to be easily able to earn before most every corner of our country's economy got taken over by crooks.... not sure if thats 'political'...

Adjusted for inflation $20 is probably close to what a person got under 1970s/80s min wages.

 

[Jetronic]

How about $200K plus for sitting on their butt and writing computer programs in an airconditioned, drop dead gorgeous building.
I can tell you that ticket taker works harder than than that programmer. Especially dealing with people, some of which may be looking down on them.

That's mostly the case, the lower down you go the harder you have to work. But there's working hard and working smart. I suppose the programmer works smart.

 

[sk_pete]

I can tell you that ticket taker works harder than than that programmer.

i started as electrician and ended as engineer/programmer.
sometimes i think about old days, it was easier on brain. way less responsibility and stress.
cant go back because i have bills to pay. that job would not do much.

I agree with those who say a “living wage” is too hard to define.

if i spin it through translator few times i come back to minimum wage, which is interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

 

[Lubener]

It's actually a very deceptive term. Everyone has their own standard of living that they are comfortable with.

 

[Andrew1972]

In general, the iPhone is used as an analog for $100/mo frivolities.

You may not really know any one at the poverty level or homeless level. I happen to volunteer at a homeless shelter and a donated pre paid sim used on a smartphone including iPhone is generally a positive direction in getting people out of situation. I consider a smartphone with prepaid plan($10/month or free phones sim) and ability to use Wi-Fi a basic of modern job seeking and keeping employment.

 

[KrisZ]

IMO it doesn’t matter how one defines what a living wage is, because that cannot be the expectation for everyone that starts out working.

You simply cannot walk into a job with zero experience, barely high school education and expect a “living wage”. This usually applies to young adults, but there are lots of much older “kids” that are mooching off of their parents and using the low pay as an excuse not to work.

On the other hand if you’re 18 and decided to move out and try things on your own, then what’s wrong with having more than one job?

 

[Andrew1972]

IMO it doesn’t matter how one defines what a living wage is, because that cannot be the expectation for everyone that starts out working.

You simply cannot walk into a job with zero experience, barely high school education and expect a “living wage”. This usually applies to young adults, but there are lots of much older “kids” that are mooching off of their parents and using the low pay as an excuse not to work.

On the other hand if you’re 18 and decided to move out and try things on your own, then what’s wrong with having more than one job?

The market seems to adjust. My 14 year old was offered $14/hr no experience and she is not really mature. She took a grocery store job and messes up asking for days off or tracking work she is supposed to work in their arhiac system and just says I can’t work and they accommodate. She is learning and IMHO if they her go chaulk it up as learning experience. My 16 year old makes $15/hr at first job with about $5-10/hr additional in weekly pooled tips.

Our local min wage is $7.30/hr. I am guessing that is political move or owners of businesses in state who use visa labor trying to keep paid wage low as they have to pay another $3-4 on top for agency fees.

 

[KrisZ]

The market seems to adjust. My 14 year old was offered $14/hr no experience and she is not really mature. She took a grocery store job and messes up asking for days off or tracking work she is supposed to work in their arhiac system and just says I can’t work and they accommodate. She is learning and IMHO if they her go chaulk it up as learning experience. My 16 year old makes $15/hr at first job with about $5-10/hr additional in weekly pooled tips.

Our local min wage is $7.30/hr. I am guessing that is political move or owners of businesses in state who use visa labor trying to keep paid wage low as they have to pay another $3-4 on top for agency fees.

Yeah, but could they live on their own making $14-$15 an hour? I highly doubt it. And it is fine, but they are still making above minimum wage proving that the market works without mandatory intervention.

The higher minimum wages are set, all it does is reward the lazy ones and makes things more expensive for everyone. And in a lot of cases these jobs get eliminated by automation. Think cashiers as an example.
So what’s the point of having a high minimum wage, when there is no jobs?

 

[zrxkawboy]

To me a living wage is a 40-48 hour work week and you can afford the bare necessities in the area you're working in (or a reasonable commute). A modest apartment and utilities including basic internet, a used car or public transportation, a basic cell phone plan, and basic groceries like Aldi. You're not going on any exotic vacations, shopping at Whole Foods, or dining out. But you can afford a roof over your head and what you need to survive. That pay will fluctuate wildly depending on the area, but I don't think that's too much of an ask for that person to be paid enough to survive. I have no problem paying more for something knowing the people working behind the scenes to provide it to me can afford to live.

I understand what you're saying, but I still think it's more complex than that. Does the wage need to be sufficient to cover these things for the wage earner, or for a spouse and kids also? Or the wage earner and kids, if s/he is single? How many kids should we factor in?