What exactly is a "Living wage"?

[ArrestMeRedZ]

I reject the assumption that everybody in the lower tier of entry level jobs deserves a "living" wage that should provide them with a one bedroom apartment and other amenities.
My wife had a landscaping company. Her non-domestic workers would live dorm style with 2 to 4 people per bedroom. Inexpensive food was bought in bulk and they cooked their own meals. Reminded me a lot like life as a college student.
An entry level worker made over minimum wage, but not by a large amount. Homelessness was nonexistent among the group, and they earned enough to live comfortably and still send home half to 2/3rds of their pay.
No Starbucks. No private automobile. No buying drinks in bars. Roommates. It can be done.

 

[dishdude]

I reject the assumption that everybody in the lower tier of entry level jobs deserves a "living" wage that should provide them with a one bedroom apartment and other amenities.
My wife had a landscaping company. Her non-domestic workers would live dorm style with 2 to 4 people per bedroom. Inexpensive food was bought in bulk and they cooked their own meals. Reminded me a lot like life as a college student.
An entry level worker made over minimum wage, but not by a large amount. Homelessness was nonexistent among the group, and they earned enough to live comfortably and still send home half to 2/3rds of their pay.
No Starbucks. No private automobile. No buying drinks in bars. Roommates. It can be done.

What does non-domestic worker mean? Undocumented?

 

[john_pifer]

I reject the assumption that everybody in the lower tier of entry level jobs deserves a "living" wage that should provide them with a one bedroom apartment and other amenities.
My wife had a landscaping company. Her non-domestic workers would live dorm style with 2 to 4 people per bedroom. Inexpensive food was bought in bulk and they cooked their own meals. Reminded me a lot like life as a college student.
An entry level worker made over minimum wage, but not by a large amount. Homelessness was nonexistent among the group, and they earned enough to live comfortably and still send home half to 2/3rds of their pay.
No Starbucks. No private automobile. No buying drinks in bars. Roommates. It can be done.

This is spot-on. I see exactly the situation you describe, frequently, here in north Nashville, TN.

We buy our groceries at Walmart, and we see a lot of recent Latin American immigrants who are obviously living in the manner you describe. They’re working construction, or landscaping, or as cooks in restaurants, increasingly. They’ll rent a house or apt and live dorm-style, and throw in on food, etc.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

Non-domestic means just that. Most individuals were from Mexico or Central America, working in the U.S. with the intent to return to family there eventually. To my knowledge, none were undocumented - all had to show documentation before they were employed.
Her business partner was also a green card holder initially, but obtained citizenship during the partnership.

 

[Astro14]

All true.
I guess what I wonder is why is someone blessed with incredible abilities and work ethic like your daughter and others can barely take tickets?

Just a question; I have no answers...
But I know I am in awe of your daughter's outstanding accomplishments in her journey. And the wonderful contributions she will make in people's lives.
I have met many such along the way.

I have no honest answer, either.

To presume that it's due, in some part, to parenting seems self-serving, at best, though I like to believe that at least some values were instilled as the result of parental influence.

All three of my children are very similar in their clarity of purpose, responsibility, and academic achievement.

I accept that we, as parents, are extraordinarily blessed.

I cannot adequately explain it.

But I will say, and I think I've made this point before, that all three of my children scooped ice cream at that store. The store's owner was a particular and involved boss, with high standards. She was a great influence on the kids as well. Her high standards, her high expectations of all of her employees, were a shaping influence.

For that, I thank her. Sincerely thank her.

Ice cream scooper (and floor scrubber, dish washer, register operator, and the host of other menial tasks expected) isn't a career, but a first job, a teenager's job, and is a valuable stepping stone into the "real world".

Not a career, but an important experience.

I have seen parents provide their children with generous amounts of money, wanting them to "focus" on academics, and avoid the need for a teenage job to earn spending money.

I think this is a mistake. By avoiding the real-world context of a boss, work responsibilities, interacting with customers, how hard people have to work to earn money, etc., those parents who keep their children out of the work force as teenagers have deprived them of important context and perspective on work and life.

So, while I can't answer your question, I can, with absolute certainty, state that their first job was a critically important shaping experience for all of my children, and as I reflect on it, I am even more grateful for the high standards of their first boss.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Well said @Astro14
I take 2 things from your post:

1. All work is honorable and valuable.
2. A strong work ethic; being a worker bee, is a powerful trait. "Unstoppable" comes to mind.

Your children are fortunate to come from your nest. And I'm sure they are grateful.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Like the title says, what is a "Living wage".

Had a recent discussion with a parent and their child is a movie ticket taker at a theater. The parent is mad because pay is just above minimum wage and not a "Living wage". I didn't ask because this person has a persecution complex and didn't want to hear it as to why they were thinking that then I also pondered what exactly is a living wage. I can't see a person saying "Your movie is the second door on the right" getting $20 an hour but that's just me.

Imagine what the UAW pays for up in Detroit. I think my daughter deserves more as a US Marine in pay, benefits, etc and some are too well compensated for very little or nothing at all.

 

[dishdude]

This is spot-on. I see exactly the situation you describe, frequently, here in north Nashville, TN.

We buy our groceries at Walmart, and we see a lot of recent Latin American immigrants who are obviously living in the manner you describe. They’re working construction, or landscaping, or as cooks in restaurants, increasingly. They’ll rent a house or apt and live dorm-style, and throw in on food, etc.

What's so great about this? Undocumented workers getting paid under the table, skipping out on taxes and being taken advantage of. What happens when someone gets hurt? I'm sure there's no worker's comp claim.

 

[JHZR2]

How about $200K plus for sitting on their butt and writing computer programs in an airconditioned, drop dead gorgeous building.
I can tell you that ticket taker works harder than than that programmer. Especially dealing with people, some of which may be looking down on them.

I think the argument would be that the $200k computer programmer could go and take tickets, but the ticket taker probably can’t program.

The “living wage” discussion probably goes in a bad way fast. But I’m a “you don’t deserve anything” person, so a living wage verges more like a safe dormatory and fresh vegetarian diet, no iPhone, and a bus pass, then it does anything more…

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

Afford to rent an apartment within 30-45min of where you work?

 

[Andrew1972]

I think the argument would be that the $200k computer programmer could go and take tickets, but the ticket taker probably can’t program.

The “living wage” discussion probably goes in a bad way fast. But I’m a “you don’t deserve anything” person, so a living wage verges more like a safe dormatory and fresh vegetarian diet, no iPhone, and a bus pass, then it does anything more…

Living wage can't afford college, or entitle you to 1 room per children.

Comfortable wage is not the same as living (survival) wage.

Without a smartphone which can be inexpensive you are cut off from many jobs and communication required around job. You don’t have to pay a lot for one however whether you are homeless or making into six figures it involves using internet and basic communication like talking and texting.

 

[JHZR2]

Without a smartphone which can be inexpensive you are cut off from many jobs and communication required around job. You don’t have to pay a lot for one however whether you are homeless or making into six figures it involves using internet and basic communication like talking and texting.

In general, the iPhone is used as an analog for $100/mo frivolities.

 

[PandaBear]

I reject the assumption that everybody in the lower tier of entry level jobs deserves a "living" wage that should provide them with a one bedroom apartment and other amenities.
My wife had a landscaping company. Her non-domestic workers would live dorm style with 2 to 4 people per bedroom. Inexpensive food was bought in bulk and they cooked their own meals. Reminded me a lot like life as a college student.
An entry level worker made over minimum wage, but not by a large amount. Homelessness was nonexistent among the group, and they earned enough to live comfortably and still send home half to 2/3rds of their pay.
No Starbucks. No private automobile. No buying drinks in bars. Roommates. It can be done.

So, are you using "seasonal" worker as a living wage standard in this country because most of their family members are out of this country living on a different cost?

Or are you saying that we should all live like that and send our US family to Mexico? There is a reason many jobs can't get enough candidate to apply for, if that is the standard employers are expecting.

BTW I was at Home Depot recently and ever since about 3 years ago there are barely any people waiting to be hired from the parking lot now. I've seen some people bargaining and the "non domestic" workers just laugh and say no to the potential employers.

 

[PandaBear]

In general, the iPhone is used as an analog for $100/mo frivolities

Huh? It can be had for $260 after tax subsidized with a $30/mo rate plan. Even someone working minimum wage can afford an iPhone now.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

What's so great about this? Undocumented workers getting paid under the table, skipping out on taxes and being taken advantage of. What happens when someone gets hurt? I'm sure there's no worker's comp claim.

Assumes facts not in evidence, counselor. I know of no post that references undocumented and/or illegal workers, nor any that references being paid under the table. I hope you are not suggesting that workers that originate in another country, have a valid picture ID and a Social Security number shouldn't be employed.

All of the employees I was familiar with had worker's comp, were paid on top of the table, paid SS and had income tax withheld. IMO they were not taken advantage of. In our case, as we learned later, the opposite was occurring.

I am purposely not making comment or reference to undocumented workers. Only workers that are lawful entry level employees. Non-domestic in my context does not mean illegal.

 

[JHZR2]

Huh? It can be had for $260 after tax subsidized with a $30/mo rate plan. Even someone working minimum wage can afford an iPhone now.

Thus the use of the term “analog”.

You forget the monthly cost of a data plan on top of the financed cost of the phone as soon as someone wants something fancier. Thus the term frivolities.

But again… analog.

 

[PandaBear]

What's so great about this? Undocumented workers getting paid under the table, skipping out on taxes and being taken advantage of. What happens when someone gets hurt? I'm sure there's no worker's comp claim.

I think that was a work visa program for some seasonal work, perfectly legal, need to pay tax, need workers comp, etc.

The major thing is you are not raising a family here, you are sending your money back home to raise your family "there". You can put up with lots of harsh condition alone if this means a better future "there".

Think of it as, if you are working in Anartica and send money home to raise your family in the US by earning 3x your US income.

 

[PandaBear]

Thus the use of the term “analog”.

You forget the monthly cost of a data plan on top of the financed cost of the phone as soon as someone wants something fancier. Thus the term frivolities.

But again… analog.

$260 every 3-4 years is not a lot of money today, $30 / mo data plan is not really "that much". Ok you can go $15 / mo minimum but compare to water, electricity, car insurance, etc it is not a lot.

But anyways, like you said nobody deserves anything these days and in the good ole days either. We are all just trying to compete against inflation and the only way to win is to not have too many kids.

 

[PandaBear]

Let me put this whole topic in a different way, what is an "acceptable living standard" these days:

1) indoor bed (probably around $1000-1500 / mo if you have roommate)
2) running water (about $30 / mo if you have roommate)
3) electricity (about $50 / mo if you have roommate)
4) between 50F to 90F indoor temperature (free here but in the summer maybe $20 extra?)
5) 2000 calorie intake (debatable, I'd say about $300-500 / mo min if you don't want to get into health problem)
6) flushing toilet (part of rent, assuming you need $100/mo of sanitary stuff like TP and soap, shampoo, etc)
7) transportation (if you want to work a real paying job probably need a car, $100/mo insurance and $200/mo realistic cost of owning a corolla new or used)
8) clothings (Old Navys, probably $30 / mo average if you want to look cheap over the years?)

I think this is up to debate:

9) health insurance? maybe Medicare or Medicaid if you are so poor?
10) children? maybe you can afford to loaf off the system if you are so poor?

So how much would it cost 1-8 and how much would it cost 9-10? How many hours is reasonable hours to work per week? and how much would it need per hour to afford 1-8?

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

So, are you using "seasonal" worker as a living wage standard in this country because most of their family members are out of this country living on a different cost?

Or are you saying that we should all live like that and send our US family to Mexico? There is a reason many jobs can't get enough candidate to apply for, if that is the standard employers are expecting.

BTW I was at Home Depot recently and ever since about 3 years ago there are barely any people waiting to be hired from the parking lot now. I've seen some people bargaining and the "non domestic" workers just laugh and say no to the potential employers.

Sorry, this is a strawman argument filled with assumptions that I will not address.
It is my belief though that nobody has the right to live comfortably in California if they do not have the assets, or the skill set necessary to earn enough to survive in that desirable but high cost state. If you can't afford to live there, move to where there is a lower cost of living.
The guys in the Home Depot parking lot do fit Dishdude's description above. Paid under the table, no taxes paid, probable documentation issues. And, from what I've heard from homeowners that hired them, crooked as a dog's leg. The few left have probably burned a lot of bridges if they can't get hired with this labor market.