What are LFP batteries?

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JeffKeryk

JeffKeryk

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Pinging @OVERKILL
The delivery date for a Tesla Model 3 Std Range Plus is February right now...
My understanding is, Tesla is offering a quicker delivery if you accept an LFP battery.
I believe this is the battery used in the Giga Shanghai factory.
This is the battery @Nick1994 has in his new Model 3.

What the heck is a Lithium Ferrous Phosphate battery?
Supposedly the range is a little less, but you can charge to 100% with less degredation than the LI battery.
We charge to 80%...
If you were buying right now, which way would you go?

Your thoughts?
I appreciate your guidance. Hopefully others will chime in.

Full disclosure, I am considering another Tesla.
 
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JeffKeryk said:
Pinging @OVERKILL
The delivery date for a Tesla Model 3 Std Range Plus is February right now...
My understanding is, Tesla is offering a quicker delivery if you accept an LFP battery.
I believe this is the battery used in the Giga Shanghai factory.
This is the battery @Nick1994 has in his new Model 3.

What the heck is a Lithium Ferrous Phosphate battery?
Supposedly the range is a little less, but you can charge to 100% with less degredation than the LI battery.
We charge to 80%...
If you were buying right now, which way would you go?

Your thoughts?
I appreciate your guidance. Hopefully others will chime in.

Full disclosure, I am considering another Tesla.
Click to expand...

Lithium Iron Phosphate is a different type of lithium battery that has slight lower energy density, but cycles better and isn't as sensitive to charge state, as you've surmised. These are becoming extremely popular for off-grid storage solutions, in fact a friend of mine has two of them for that very purpose. They are much better than lead acid, offering far greater flexibility because you can deeply discharge them without damaging them like lead acid and they have very high charge cycle counts.

Given that these are brand new for Tesla, I might want to wait a bit and see how they work out and if the company does any early tweaking once they've got a good number on the road. In theory, they should be an improvement but there may be teething pains.
 
OVERKILL said:
Given that these are brand new for Tesla, I might want to wait a bit and see how they work out and if the company does any early tweaking once they've got a good number on the road. In theory, they should be an improvement but there may be teething pains.
Click to expand...

They are also considerably less energy dense than "conventional" lithium ion .. which is why there is no long range with them(from tesla) They will fit in the battery compartment because the vehicle was designed for a bigger battery than you have with standard range.. if that makes sense.

Also they are much safer as far as turning into a fire/bomb.

IIRC they are saying charge cycles around 2k range and dont mind charging to full 100% level.

The lifepo4 batteries are also considerably cheaper vs their normal batteries

https://www.amazon.com/lifepo4/s?k=lifepo4
 
LiFePO4 batteries can be darn good. They have little risk of fire, and quality ones universally hold up for 2000 charge cycles before any significant degradation sets in. Like other batteries, they seem to do best when cycled in or about the 80% depth of discharge range, and may have unlimited cycle life when managed "in the center". The one issue that seems to be more real, is the cold weather performance and other cold weather issues. There are claims that cold weather performance matches other lithium battery technology. Based on what I see, I don't believe it, but don't have data to back up my position.

We use LiFePO4 batteries as aircraft starting batteries in experimental aircraft. They last, they work and they don't fail. However, they are utterly useless in freezing temperatures. In fact, when very cold, they won't start our engines on the first, second or third attempt. But on the 4th or 5th, they often will. The reason is that they heat up internally, resistance decreases and they start to work. HOWEVER, one must also manage the battery charge rate when cold. High cold charge rates will ruin them. I've seen it said that below freezing charge rates need to be about 0.1c, and when near zero, they may not accept a charge at all.

It is my personal belief that LiFePO4 batteries will generally make excellent EV batteries, especially if managed well and used for the long term, as they could last 500,000 miles before declining.

Because of the possibility of long life, despite the lower energy density, they may have a lower cost of ownership. Time will tell, as resale could be good. However, there are a lot of assumptions with that one.
 
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If all goes well, in the right car these sound like an excellent option.
Cost wise, I know the Shanghai cars are built to be a little smaller price point than the Fremont cars.

Thanks to all who posted.
 
JeffKeryk said:
If you were buying right now, which way would you go?
Click to expand...
If I were buying now, I’d go LFP! :ROFLMAO:

I’m glad I got it though, I’d rather be a guinea pig for what may end up being better in the long run. By the time I’d wait to see if it works out to be good, there’s probably be another new battery technology out.

Glad to be able to charge to 100%, with freeway use and 110 degree temperatures I need it sometimes!
 
Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry. A different cathode variant that uses an olivine structured material with much lower cost, and, perhaps more importantly, much tighter bound oxygen. Other Li-ion chemistries exothermicslly decompose and self generate oxygen. LFP doesn’t. You still need to deal with electrolyte fires and short circuits, but they are notionally safer. The downside is that they are nominally 3.3V cells instead of 3.7V cells.

They are often optimized for power and rate, not energy.
 
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Cujet said:
LiFePO4 batteries can be darn good. They have little risk of fire, and quality ones universally hold up for 2000 charge cycles before any significant degradation sets in. Like other batteries, they seem to do best when cycled in or about the 80% depth of discharge range, and may have unlimited cycle life when managed "in the center". The one issue that seems to be more real, is the cold weather performance and other cold weather issues. There are claims that cold weather performance matches other lithium battery technology. Based on what I see, I don't believe it, but don't have data to back up my position.

We use LiFePO4 batteries as aircraft starting batteries in experimental aircraft. They last, they work and they don't fail. However, they are utterly useless in freezing temperatures. In fact, when very cold, they won't start our engines on the first, second or third attempt. But on the 4th or 5th, they often will. The reason is that they heat up internally, resistance decreases and they start to work. HOWEVER, one must also manage the battery charge rate when cold. High cold charge rates will ruin them. I've seen it said that below freezing charge rates need to be about 0.1c, and when near zero, they may not accept a charge at all.

It is my personal belief that LiFePO4 batteries will generally make excellent EV batteries, especially if managed well and used for the long term, as they could last 500,000 miles before declining.

Because of the possibility of long life, despite the lower energy density, they may have a lower cost of ownership. Time will tell, as resale could be good. However, there are a lot of assumptions with that one.
Click to expand...

Great post.

Yes, the cold issue is real. My buddy's banks won't charge at 0C, he has to keep the room above that, I think like 5 or 10C?
 
JeffKeryk said:
Pinging @OVERKILL
The delivery date for a Tesla Model 3 Std Range Plus is February right now...
My understanding is, Tesla is offering a quicker delivery if you accept an LFP battery.
I believe this is the battery used in the Giga Shanghai factory.
This is the battery @Nick1994 has in his new Model 3.

What the heck is a Lithium Ferrous Phosphate battery?
Supposedly the range is a little less, but you can charge to 100% with less degredation than the LI battery.
We charge to 80%...
If you were buying right now, which way would you go?

Your thoughts?
I appreciate your guidance. Hopefully others will chime in.

Full disclosure, I am considering another Tesla.
Click to expand...
I have to look into this. My wife is seriously considering a Model 3 and saw deliveries out to February.

Q: Did you install a generic L2 wall charger in your garage or opt for the Tesla version?

Q: What did it cost you (labor)?
 
BMWTurboDzl said:
I have to look into this. My wife is seriously considering a Model 3 and saw deliveries out to February.

Q: Did you install a generic L2 wall charger in your garage or opt for the Tesla version?

Q: What did it cost you (labor)?
Click to expand...
Remember, the charger is in the car. You supply the source. You could plug into a 120v wall plug. 6 MPH charge rate... Some people do this.
Also, the cars allow oyu to schedule charge start time, so you can plug in and start charging on off-peak hours.
A union electrician came over on his day off. He ran 60' of #6 copper wire under the house. The 200A panel had room got a 50A breaker. Installed a NEMA 14-50 in the garage.
Our 2018 Mid Range pulls 32A @240V. 28 to 30 MPH charging rate.
The wire alone was like $200. The price was $600 all in including tip.

The bigger cars can accept more amps, which is when you might need the Tesla Wall Charger.
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