What ammo for a US Rifle, Cal.30, M1 (Garand)?

[paulo57509]

Sounds like you are using the pull down wc 852 powder.

You should try some of these...I've gotten better groups with them than the 150 corelokts.

View attachment 227944

https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/powder-data-sheets-rvo-river-valley-ordinance.240464/

Here's the data that came with my 8lb container. It's one of the two lots sold by RVO. I'm not shooting in competition, so it works fine for my needs.

 

[jeremy2171]

Because they suck, in general.

Maybe it's just your rifle.

Do you have a cast rifle?

 

[GooseGestapo]

As I stated in another thread, it’s not the pressure but the burning rate of the powder and the duration and area under the pressure curve.
It’s the velocity of the op-rod that matters.
IMR4895 was the powder used during WWII and many modern powders approximate the burn rate.
Slower powders that became available for reloaders after WWII is what lead to the problem. Notably IMR4350, and IMR4831 are the two leading culprits. Newer powders notably Reloader22 and similar which is used in modern high performance 180ge and heavier can and have caused problems.
I witnessed a shooter using Hornady SuperFormance 180gr ‘06 bind the action on a Garand immediately following a similar conversation…
Good ‘old Remington Corlokts are loaded to Garand safe parameters which has led to complacency regarding factory ammo in Garands.

 

[burbguy82]

As I stated in another thread, it’s not the pressure but the burning rate of the powder and the duration and area under the pressure curve.
It’s the velocity of the op-rod that matters.
IMR4895 was the powder used during WWII and many modern powders approximate the burn rate.
Slower powders that became available for reloaders after WWII is what lead to the problem. Notably IMR4350, and IMR4831 are the two leading culprits. Newer powders notably Reloader22 and similar which is used in modern high performance 180ge and heavier can and have caused problems.
I witnessed a shooter using Hornady SuperFormance 180gr ‘06 bind the action on a Garand immediately following a similar conversation…
Good ‘old Remington Corlokts are loaded to Garand safe parameters which has led to complacency regarding factory ammo in Garands.

Of course the burn rate directly effects the pressure, as does the bullet weight.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Of course the burn rate directly affects the pressure, as does the bullet weight.

Not directly but indirectly.
60gr of Reloader 22 will yield over 2,800fps from a 24”bbl .30/06. This puts it on the heels of the original.300H&Hmag, the total pressure is within SAAMI limits but would be VERY abusive of the Garand action.
Going to WC860, an extreme example, a compressed case full with a 180gr bullet will only net 38,000 to 42,000psi, but likewise, the slide velocity will be damaging due to residual pressure at the gas-port located near the muzzle.
It’s the total area under the pressure curve and port pressure of the Garand that matters. A load of say H4198 will reach max pressure quickly, however most will be consumed long before the bullet passes the barrel ports so the gas VOLUME is low, and hence the “push” on the op-rod is much less. Velocity is much reduced too.

 

[burbguy82]

Not directly but indirectly.
60gr of Reloader 22 will yield over 2,800fps from a 24”bbl .30/06. This puts it on the heels of the original.300H&Hmag, the total pressure is within SAAMI limits but would be VERY abusive of the Garand action.
Going to WC860, an extreme example, a compressed case full with a 180gr bullet will only net 38,000 to 42,000psi, but likewise, the slide velocity will be damaging due to residual pressure at the gas-port located near the muzzle.
It’s the total area under the pressure curve and port pressure of the Garand that matters. A load of say H4198 will reach max pressure quickly, however most will be consumed long before the bullet passes the barrel ports so the gas VOLUME is low, and hence the “push” on the op-rod is much less. Velocity is much reduced too.

It is clear that you are well versed in the world of reloading.....

But, burn rate and bullet weight are the two most important factors in pressure, with burn rate being by far #1...... all others bring equal, meaning the selection of powder, bullet OD etc. These would be direct, not indirect.
Overall bullet OD is a factor aswell, like with "30 caliber" and its wide selection of bullet diameters, from 300-311ish in 762 Soviet.
Heavy and tighter bullets move slower down the barrel, thus affecting the pressure behind them. Of course, as with everything, there is a sweet spot.

Recently, I have been a part of extensive testing with smokeless powder, in muzzleloaders, where the pressure is everything, pushing over 3000 fps, with a 300 grain bullet.

Overall it seems we agree, but in uncertain terms, but for the purpose of this thread, to much juice is not good for the Garand.

Also, heavier bullets put more stress on the locking lugs of the Garand reciever, and bolt......couple that with higher pressure=not good, really for any semi auto, with acception to maybe the AR platform, or one like it.

 

[GooseGestapo]

It is clear that you are well versed in the world of reloading.....

But, burn rate and bullet weight are the two most important factors in pressure, with burn rate being by far #1...... all others bring equal, meaning the selection of powder, bullet OD etc. These would be direct, not indirect.
Overall bullet OD is a factor aswell, like with "30 caliber" and its wide selection of bullet diameters, from 300-311ish in 762 Soviet.
Heavy and tighter bullets move slower down the barrel, thus affecting the pressure behind them. Of course, as with everything, there is a sweet spot.

Recently, I have been a part of extensive testing with smokeless powder, in muzzleloaders, where the pressure is everything, pushing over 3000 fps, with a 300 grain bullet.

Overall it seems we agree, but in uncertain terms, but for the purpose of this thread, to much juice is not good for the Garand.

Also, heavier bullets put more stress on the locking lugs of the Garand reciever, and bolt......couple that with higher pressure=not good, really for any semi auto, with acception to maybe the AR platform, or one like it.

Explain why heavier bullets put more stress on the locking lugs?

 

[burbguy82]

Explain why heavier bullets put more stress on the locking lugs?

Well, that is what I was saying about all things being equal. Speed, powder charge and so on.
Heavier bullet is harder to push......because it is the lugs you are pushing against.
Pressure, yes is what you are fighting, and the heavier the bullet, the more than pressure has to be fought against.
Ever noticed a difference in the felt recoil? It is the lugs that you are feeling. Bullet weight.

For example: 5.56 and 30-06 have very similar pressures very similar, which one has more recoil? The 30-06. Why? Bullet weight. Evry action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Imagine for a moment, this thought experiment:

you load a typical 30-06 round, 150 grain, to your liking..........fire the round, measure the speed, pressure and so on.

Load the same round same powder and everything else......this time with half the bullet weight.

Which pressure would be higher, as an average until the bullet left the barrel?

Answer: the heavier bullet. Why? Because the bullet was in the barrel longer......pressure had more time to build in the barrel before it equalizes with the atmosphere (leaving the barrel).



As I state recently, I was recently (over the past couple years) a part of some testing using smokeless powder, in muzzleloaders, prevoiusly and still thought to be very dangerous (It is not.... with the right data)

During this testing (using a devise that measures barrel expansion) it was determined that bullet weight was a tremendous contributing factor to pressure, #2 only to powder charge.

If you would like, start a new thread on this subject, as many would like to discuss this.

 

[jeremy2171]

As I stated in another thread, it’s not the pressure but the burning rate of the powder and the duration and area under the pressure curve.
It’s the velocity of the op-rod that matters.
IMR4895 was the powder used during WWII and many modern powders approximate the burn rate. {/quote]

4895 wasn't used until late '43-44 timeframe. Prior to that it was IMR 1185 and IMR4676.. later on it was WC852 and CMR-100 powder.

Slower powders that became available for reloaders after WWII is what lead to the problem. Notably IMR4350, and IMR4831 are the two leading culprits. Newer powders notably Reloader22 and similar which is used in modern high performance 180ge and heavier can and have caused problems.
I witnessed a shooter using Hornady SuperFormance 180gr ‘06 bind the action on a Garand immediately following a similar conversation…
Good ‘old Remington Corlokts are loaded to Garand safe parameters which has led to complacency regarding factory ammo in Garands.

The superformance bound it up because it wasn't properly lubed.

The key to the garand is properly lubrication and an inspec oprod spring...19.5" min.

 

[jeremy2171]

Not directly but indirectly.
60gr of Reloader 22 will yield over 2,800fps from a 24”bbl .30/06. This puts it on the heels of the original.300H&Hmag, the total pressure is within SAAMI limits but would be VERY abusive of the Garand action.
Going to WC860, an extreme example, a compressed case full with a 180gr bullet will only net 38,000 to 42,000psi, but likewise, the slide velocity will be damaging due to residual pressure at the gas-port located near the muzzle.
It’s the total area under the pressure curve and port pressure of the Garand that matters. A load of say H4198 will reach max pressure quickly, however most will be consumed long before the bullet passes the barrel ports so the gas VOLUME is low, and hence the “push” on the op-rod is much less. Velocity is much reduced too.

60gr of RL22 gives only slightly more port pressure than the highest milsurp ball load.

 

[jeremy2171]

Well, that is what I was saying about all things being equal. Speed, powder charge and so on.
Heavier bullet is harder to push......because it is the lugs you are pushing against.
Pressure, yes is what you are fighting, and the heavier the bullet, the more than pressure has to be fought against.
Ever noticed a difference in the felt recoil? It is the lugs that you are feeling. Bullet weight.

For example: 5.56 and 30-06 have very similar pressures very similar, which one has more recoil? The 30-06. Why? Bullet weight. Evry action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Imagine for a moment, this thought experiment:

you load a typical 30-06 round, 150 grain, to your liking..........fire the round, measure the speed, pressure and so on.

Load the same round same powder and everything else......this time with half the bullet weight.

Which pressure would be higher, as an average until the bullet left the barrel?

Answer: the heavier bullet. Why? Because the bullet was in the barrel longer......pressure had more time to build in the barrel before it equalizes with the atmosphere (leaving the barrel).



As I state recently, I was recently (over the past couple years) a part of some testing using smokeless powder, in muzzleloaders, prevoiusly and still thought to be very dangerous (It is not.... with the right data)

During this testing (using a devise that measures barrel expansion) it was determined that bullet weight was a tremendous contributing factor to pressure, #2 only to powder charge.

If you would like, start a new thread on this subject, as many would like to discuss this.

60,000psi chamber pressure is the same force on the lugs. Heavy bullets or light bullets are irrelevant...its the "force" in the chamber causing the stress on the lugs.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Again, it’s the PORT pressure that matters. Absolute peak pressure is contained by the locking lugs, but with faster burning powders, the pressure is lower when the bullet passes the gas port which is approximately under the front sight. If the port pressure is too high, the op-rod is accelerated too fast and places too much force on it.
It’s the area under the pressure curve which is determined by burn speed of the powder.
The various adjustable gas plugs moderate the VOLUME of gas reaching the piston resulting in a lower operating rod velocity. With an adjustable plug, you can safely use any weight bullets or safe ammunition.

 

[burbguy82]

Absolute peak pressure is contained by the locking lugs, but with faster burning powders, the pressure is lower when the bullet passes the gas port

No, faster burning powder = higher pressure

adjustable gas plugs moderate the VOLUME of gas

This is 100% true

 

[jeremy2171]

Again, it’s the PORT pressure that matters. Absolute peak pressure is contained by the locking lugs, but with faster burning powders, the pressure is lower when the bullet passes the gas port which is approximately under the front sight. If the port pressure is too high, the op-rod is accelerated too fast and places too much force on it.
It’s the area under the pressure curve which is determined by burn speed of the powder.

Yes I know

The various adjustable gas plugs moderate the VOLUME of gas reaching the piston resulting in a lower operating rod velocity. With an adjustable plug, you can safely use any weight bullets or safe ammunition.

You can already use any weight of bullet and any SAAMI spec ammo is already fine with the use of gimmick items.

And for the record they are called gas cylinder lock screws. Gas "plugs" are only found on gas trap rifles.

 

[jeremy2171]

No, faster burning powder = higher pressure

in the chamber...not at the port

This is 100% true

and still not needed.

 

[burbguy82]

If the pressure is higher at the ignition source, the pressure is higher at the port, all other factors being equal. But even higher when the bullet is tighter or heavier...... I do not understand why you do not get this concept, especially when you have done so much testing.

and still not needed.

Well that would depend on what you are wanting to do.

I agree it is not needed, because the proper ammo for the M1 Garand is the right weight and the right pressure. Although the adjustable style device regulates volume, it can reduce pressure, introduced to the gas system depending on design.

 

[jeremy2171]

If the pressure is higher at the ignition source, the pressure is higher at the port, all other factors being equal. But even higher when the bullet is tighter or heavier...... I do not understand why you do not get this concept, especially when you have done so much testing.

because thats not always how it works. Our test data confirms this. Powder burn rate is what affects this. Faster powder has higher chamber pressure and lower port pressure...slow powders ..the opposite.

Well that would depend on what you are wanting to do.

I agree it is not needed, because the proper ammo for the M1 Garand is the right weight and the right pressure.

What is the right weight and pressure?? Source?

Although the adjustable style device regulates volume, it can reduce pressure, introduced to the gas system depending on design.

It can't change the port pressure..only the cylinder pressure.

 

[burbguy82]

because thats not always how it works. Our test data confirms this. Powder burn rate is what affects this. Faster powder has higher chamber pressure and lower port pressure...slow powders ..the opposite.


What is the right weight and pressure?? Source?


It can't change the port pressure..only the cylinder pressure.

I am not going to argue with you. Good luck with your thread.

 

[jeremy2171]

I am not going to argue with you. Good luck with your thread.

You could have at least provided the correct weight and pressure...

Are you unable to have civil discourse? What part of my post was confusing to you?