Well, the gas stations were empty today.
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Hmmmmmm....it only took two pages of posts by the whiners for Groucho to bring up the idea of REDUCING THE DEMAND. What a novel idea. Maybe if the gazzillion daily work commuters had more than one person per vehicle ...... we could easily drop the demand by at least 1/4 over night.
The media says that it will take $4 to $5 a gallon prices before we start adjusting our habits. Why should the oil companies not reap the benefits???
The media says that it will take $4 to $5 a gallon prices before we start adjusting our habits. Why should the oil companies not reap the benefits???
I was peddling everywhere in my $300 bike. But that Hurricane in 2003 washed my bike into the ocean
We use gas because it's still the cheapest way to get down the road.
If gas prices get high enough, other technologies will be economically viable.
Until then, or until someone figures out how to run the internal combustion engine on water, or cold fusion is perfected, we will be buying gasoline.
Like I've said before, currently the greatest cost of driving is NOT gasoline, but the hardware.
Complaining about the price of gasoline in most cases is like the owner of a major league baseball team complaining about the cost of individual baseballs.
If gas prices get high enough, other technologies will be economically viable.
Until then, or until someone figures out how to run the internal combustion engine on water, or cold fusion is perfected, we will be buying gasoline.
Like I've said before, currently the greatest cost of driving is NOT gasoline, but the hardware.
Complaining about the price of gasoline in most cases is like the owner of a major league baseball team complaining about the cost of individual baseballs.
java,
Thats exactly why I extend drains (OCI) as long as I can. Unfortunately I drive twice as much as I did 8 months ago. My gas bill has been going skyhigh! So its effecting me and it effects others.
I have thought about the problem. Actually, I have thought about it to much and the more I think about it the angrier I get!
Almost all products you and I buy are transported. These cost will again be passed on.
Its all greed anyway you slice it. The buyers are buying futures with anticipation of higher prices. So you feed the rumor mill to induce buying to increase the price. They know support and resistance points and want to feed the rumor hard enough to launch it through resistance at $70. Fabricate some real scary stories and you may well peirce the resistance with conviction. That resistance will then become support. There goes sub $3 gas! Guess what happens then?
The fed continues to raise rates to curb inflationary pressure. The inflationary pressure isn't curbed since fuel continues to rise. They don't count energy. So real estate drops. What happens when real estate drops? People stop buying. What happens when people stop buying? Foreclosure rates are rising dramatically!
I have already covered this stuff numerous times already. You either grasp this or you don't. Its a domino effect! Believe me the results are very catastrophic financially for millions of people!
I could go on with this and it would depress everyone, but I am not going to. Lifes to short!
Thats exactly why I extend drains (OCI) as long as I can. Unfortunately I drive twice as much as I did 8 months ago. My gas bill has been going skyhigh! So its effecting me and it effects others.
I have thought about the problem. Actually, I have thought about it to much and the more I think about it the angrier I get!
Almost all products you and I buy are transported. These cost will again be passed on.
Its all greed anyway you slice it. The buyers are buying futures with anticipation of higher prices. So you feed the rumor mill to induce buying to increase the price. They know support and resistance points and want to feed the rumor hard enough to launch it through resistance at $70. Fabricate some real scary stories and you may well peirce the resistance with conviction. That resistance will then become support. There goes sub $3 gas! Guess what happens then?
The fed continues to raise rates to curb inflationary pressure. The inflationary pressure isn't curbed since fuel continues to rise. They don't count energy. So real estate drops. What happens when real estate drops? People stop buying. What happens when people stop buying? Foreclosure rates are rising dramatically!
I have already covered this stuff numerous times already. You either grasp this or you don't. Its a domino effect! Believe me the results are very catastrophic financially for millions of people!
I could go on with this and it would depress everyone, but I am not going to. Lifes to short!
As price goes up, U.S. demand will drop. We'll see waht happens then.
I put my money in my tank. I haven't been on vacation since '99 and I haven't been to a movie in 3 years. Some other people may have to adjust their discretionary spending.
I may and go out west and open a business with Pablo!
I put my money in my tank. I haven't been on vacation since '99 and I haven't been to a movie in 3 years. Some other people may have to adjust their discretionary spending.
I may and go out west and open a business with Pablo!
Exactly,
We all like our "Free Enterprise System" except when it doesn't work in our favor.
Price we pay is fixed at NY Mercantile "Spot Price" several times per day. Its based on projected demand and supply and what the customer will pay . Right now supply exactly meets demand. Price goes down demand goes up supply stays the same ]b]Houston..we have a problem here[/b] Unbelievably simple but ..
Fast backward to 1975..Government froze prices...cheap gas but there was none. And yes I waited in gas lines..not fun.
What products will it hurt the most? What percentage of a given products cost is transportation?
Don't get me wrong, there will be people and businesses that are hurt/impacted by rising fuel prices.
But won't there also be businesses that see improved business.
For example, I cut down on the amount of fuel I use by telecommuting when I can, working from home. This benefits the ISP's that provide internet access, network equipment manufacturers, and so forth.
If you let the market decide the price of fuel, then the market will "self-correct"
If fuel is too cheap, people will use it until it is all gone, or producers will leave the market because there is not enough profit compared to the risk of investment.
So the government can fix the price, but I doubt they can then force oil companies to actually refine gasoline. So you have cheap gas that nobody can buy.
Or you let the market control it. Prices will spike up as folks speculate, use more, etc. When the price rises, folks will examine their behavior, on both sides, the supply side and the demand side.
Demand will drop and if possible, supply will rise as more companies find it profitable to make money in providing fuels.
You can call it greed. But then isn't wanting $1/gallon gasoline to put in our cars also greed?
Gasoline sellers want to make as much as they can per gallon. Gasoline buyers want to pay as little as possible for each gallon.
If the seller is greedy, then you have to characterize the buyer the same way.
europe... yeah $5 a gallon, and 2 months of vacation, it's all weird over there.... they think we are crazy overworked because we MIGHT get 2 weeks vacation a year, yet our economy stinks....hmmmm....
oil companies are running the show and no one is powerful enough, or willing enough, to stop them
"we must charge more since katrina, cause our refining capacity was wiped out so we have less to sell"
that was proven to be BU*****T by the profits reported, if you usually sell 10 sandwiches for $2 a piece and make $20 a day then all of a sudden something happens to where your supply of sandwiches is lessened to 5 a day and you sell them for $4 each to recoup what was lost you still make $20 a day... if you instead decide to make some crap up about a shortage and only decide to sell half your supply for twice as much then obviously you make a fat profit....enough to top the fortune 500 list and blow walmart out of the water.
their story makes no sense and no one in power cares to question it.... i know i'm not the only one here that finds that both interesting and not suprising
oil companies are running the show and no one is powerful enough, or willing enough, to stop them
"we must charge more since katrina, cause our refining capacity was wiped out so we have less to sell"
that was proven to be BU*****T by the profits reported, if you usually sell 10 sandwiches for $2 a piece and make $20 a day then all of a sudden something happens to where your supply of sandwiches is lessened to 5 a day and you sell them for $4 each to recoup what was lost you still make $20 a day... if you instead decide to make some crap up about a shortage and only decide to sell half your supply for twice as much then obviously you make a fat profit....enough to top the fortune 500 list and blow walmart out of the water.
their story makes no sense and no one in power cares to question it.... i know i'm not the only one here that finds that both interesting and not suprising
I don't complain about gas prices.
I complain about lack of alternatives to driving.
How about building more subways here in Southern Cal. How about building high speed rail within the state. You can't compare us to Europe or Japan where you don't need a car. I need a car. I try my best to use alternatives. I seek alternatives but my efforts are futile.
Building rails are expensive. But it is cheaper today than it will be 10, 20, or 40 years from now when we are forced to build it and there will be more impediments.
I complain about lack of alternatives to driving.
How about building more subways here in Southern Cal. How about building high speed rail within the state. You can't compare us to Europe or Japan where you don't need a car. I need a car. I try my best to use alternatives. I seek alternatives but my efforts are futile.
Building rails are expensive. But it is cheaper today than it will be 10, 20, or 40 years from now when we are forced to build it and there will be more impediments.
Gasoline will be $4/gl, so plan on it. If not this year then soon enough.
Our gas is cheap. Were we to tax gasoline proportionate to it's overall cost (pollution, health, injury, fatality, etc) then we'd have to increase the price by another $2 or more per gallon. Instead, the cost is borne in a dishonest manner as it is not properly accounted.
I feel sorry for the suckers who moved waaaaay out to the 'burbs of the 'burbs. No real value, long-term, in any long commute. Problems of "cities" can be fixed . . geographical distances cannot.
As to the price of gas (and the Europeans with their long vacations and such), consider that as late as the early 1970's was the concern over too much American leisure time. From 1940 to 1970, corporate profit and worker wages rose hand-in-hand, and benefits increased. Since then, even a family with two college-educated workers make no more money today than they did in 1980. Easy credit, speculation, etc has hidden this from most folks. High European gasoline prices reflect their utter dependence on importation, and the resolve to keep the economy on a sound footing through more honest pricing & taxation. They also tend to be better at containing urban sprawl for this reason.
We have chosen subsidized gasoline prices.
Higher gasoline prices will wake up a few more Americans when it hits home. And it will. $5/gl gas is foreseeable as a permanent feature.
3/10's of one-percent of the American electorate provides 85% of the funding in federal election cycles. More than $200 billion has been spent lobbying the Congress and major agencies since the early 1990's.
You ain't seen nothing yet . . . .
Our gas is cheap. Were we to tax gasoline proportionate to it's overall cost (pollution, health, injury, fatality, etc) then we'd have to increase the price by another $2 or more per gallon. Instead, the cost is borne in a dishonest manner as it is not properly accounted.
I feel sorry for the suckers who moved waaaaay out to the 'burbs of the 'burbs. No real value, long-term, in any long commute. Problems of "cities" can be fixed . . geographical distances cannot.
As to the price of gas (and the Europeans with their long vacations and such), consider that as late as the early 1970's was the concern over too much American leisure time. From 1940 to 1970, corporate profit and worker wages rose hand-in-hand, and benefits increased. Since then, even a family with two college-educated workers make no more money today than they did in 1980. Easy credit, speculation, etc has hidden this from most folks. High European gasoline prices reflect their utter dependence on importation, and the resolve to keep the economy on a sound footing through more honest pricing & taxation. They also tend to be better at containing urban sprawl for this reason.
We have chosen subsidized gasoline prices.
Higher gasoline prices will wake up a few more Americans when it hits home. And it will. $5/gl gas is foreseeable as a permanent feature.
3/10's of one-percent of the American electorate provides 85% of the funding in federal election cycles. More than $200 billion has been spent lobbying the Congress and major agencies since the early 1990's.
You ain't seen nothing yet . . . .
You guys are getting out of hand with your political enuendos. I'm suprised this thread hasn't been shut down yet.
I have an idea on bringing down the price of gasoline: We just go into the countries that have the oil and seize the oil fields permanantly. I think that would be along the lines of eminent domain, only on a more global scale.
I have an idea on bringing down the price of gasoline: We just go into the countries that have the oil and seize the oil fields permanantly. I think that would be along the lines of eminent domain, only on a more global scale.
Actually, oilyriser's post makes the most sense in this thread so far. He would probably make a much more rational dictator than I would.
Except its not really accurate. U.S dollar is really not falling against other currencies tht much.
But this borrowing is gonna' cause Armagedon when it all plays out. This country has survived for the last 10 years on foreigners buying our debt. The reason it has gone on is bc holding all our debt still gives them interest bc others are buying more of it. But like all Ponzi Schemes it will end. Unfortunately even at the age of 60, I'll live to see it.
The cost of gas is triple what it was in 2000. We have had a about a 280% increase in fuel cost in 6 years! Who is paying the 262% increase after the inflation adjustment?
If a family was paying a figure of $120 a month in fuel charges in the year 2000 they now pay around $336. Thats $216 more a month. Over 12 months thats almost $2600 more a year zapped.
Keep in mind that these figures are just for the fuel they use. You need to now make adjustments for everything else that increases do to higher energy costs:
Electric
Heating
Food
Manufacturing
Taxes
Labor
and on...
So now you can add an extra $1500 a year right there to the added fuel cost of $2600 which equals $3100. So this family now pays $3100 more just for market manipulation. You see we haven't put 300% more vehicle on the road in 5 years. The population has not increased 300%. So this is clearly market manipulation correct?
So now expand further. If this continues with the current trend, barring any catastrophic events, we will have your $8.58 a gallon gas in 5 years. But then you say they can't do that....right!
If a family was paying a figure of $120 a month in fuel charges in the year 2000 they now pay around $336. Thats $216 more a month. Over 12 months thats almost $2600 more a year zapped.
Keep in mind that these figures are just for the fuel they use. You need to now make adjustments for everything else that increases do to higher energy costs:
Electric
Heating
Food
Manufacturing
Taxes
Labor
and on...
So now you can add an extra $1500 a year right there to the added fuel cost of $2600 which equals $3100. So this family now pays $3100 more just for market manipulation. You see we haven't put 300% more vehicle on the road in 5 years. The population has not increased 300%. So this is clearly market manipulation correct?
So now expand further. If this continues with the current trend, barring any catastrophic events, we will have your $8.58 a gallon gas in 5 years. But then you say they can't do that....right!
JHZR2
Staff member
Frustraing... isnt it?!?
I said once, and Ill say it again... demand, demand, demand... I dont want to argue ones' right to buy a guzzler vehicle... But lets face it- the verage joe with a -0.5% savings rate cannot afford to drive an SUV if it is not ABSOLUTELY necessary. The "one person in a big v8 suv commuting 40 miles each way" is not sustainable when people are living more and more on credit.
I dont buy that the Chinese or Indians are causing the prices to climb because of such increased demand... most of those folks are riding motorized bicycles... or euro style small cars, from what ive seen. Things that get high MPG... At the same time, home heating units get far more effcient, vehicles get more efficient, so at the end of the day, how much did world demand really increase over the past few years? Yes, there are billions of Chinese, but not all of them, and Ill bet not even a majority of them have such amenities. So have they really upped demand that much? Surely not triple!
Yes, speculators and traders are the ones who bring the prices up, but they wouldnt have so much leverage if they didnt know the realities f the typical driver... And the reality is that to take a big loss on your showoff SUV is a bigger immediate financial hit than to keep driving it at 16 MPG. This isnt tree higging, this isnt being militant against SUVs and whatnot for the sake of a cause... this is stating the reality of the situation.
People set themselves up to be taken advanage of... the whole fuel bit is just another example, and one that most everyone can understand.
As for Europe and their gas prices, it is true that they have adapted through public transportation and smaller cars/engines. However, I am of the opinion that the Europeans' disciplined style of saving helps them out. The average American Joe saves -0.5% of his salary, so when fuel prices triple, guess what happens? No discipline, stuck between a rock and a hard place... and they loose something... In europe, savings rates are as high as 10% of the salary. Now, maybe there are no 401K plans or whatnot in Europe, I dont know... but if they can handle $8/gal fuel, more expensive everything, and higher taxes, yet still save significantly more than the average American... even if the fuel (component of their per gal/litre price) triples, they can absorb it and still be OK. Big difference.
JMH
I said once, and Ill say it again... demand, demand, demand... I dont want to argue ones' right to buy a guzzler vehicle... But lets face it- the verage joe with a -0.5% savings rate cannot afford to drive an SUV if it is not ABSOLUTELY necessary. The "one person in a big v8 suv commuting 40 miles each way" is not sustainable when people are living more and more on credit.
I dont buy that the Chinese or Indians are causing the prices to climb because of such increased demand... most of those folks are riding motorized bicycles... or euro style small cars, from what ive seen. Things that get high MPG... At the same time, home heating units get far more effcient, vehicles get more efficient, so at the end of the day, how much did world demand really increase over the past few years? Yes, there are billions of Chinese, but not all of them, and Ill bet not even a majority of them have such amenities. So have they really upped demand that much? Surely not triple!
Yes, speculators and traders are the ones who bring the prices up, but they wouldnt have so much leverage if they didnt know the realities f the typical driver... And the reality is that to take a big loss on your showoff SUV is a bigger immediate financial hit than to keep driving it at 16 MPG. This isnt tree higging, this isnt being militant against SUVs and whatnot for the sake of a cause... this is stating the reality of the situation.
People set themselves up to be taken advanage of... the whole fuel bit is just another example, and one that most everyone can understand.
As for Europe and their gas prices, it is true that they have adapted through public transportation and smaller cars/engines. However, I am of the opinion that the Europeans' disciplined style of saving helps them out. The average American Joe saves -0.5% of his salary, so when fuel prices triple, guess what happens? No discipline, stuck between a rock and a hard place... and they loose something... In europe, savings rates are as high as 10% of the salary. Now, maybe there are no 401K plans or whatnot in Europe, I dont know... but if they can handle $8/gal fuel, more expensive everything, and higher taxes, yet still save significantly more than the average American... even if the fuel (component of their per gal/litre price) triples, they can absorb it and still be OK. Big difference.
JMH
We have a good economy, China has a good economy, most of the developed countries have growing economies.
Oil is the pick and the shovel for these growing economies.
After 9/11, when many of the world's commercial aircraft were sitting on some dessert or tarmac, the demand for energy collapsed along with the economy.
This is part of the price that is paid for growth. Get used to it. In real dollars, it's cheap.
Oil is the pick and the shovel for these growing economies.
After 9/11, when many of the world's commercial aircraft were sitting on some dessert or tarmac, the demand for energy collapsed along with the economy.
This is part of the price that is paid for growth. Get used to it. In real dollars, it's cheap.
I agree, the short term increase in fuel prices seems high. There is no question about that.
However, if you look at fuel prices over the past 20-25 years,I believe things are closer to even with inflation.
For years, fuel lagged the rate of inflation.
I have fuel price data on my PDA and on 11/14/2001 I paid $0.979/gallon of fuel. The highest I've paid so far for regular unleaded was $3.029 on 9/1/2005.
My last fill-up was at $2.499 on 4/11/2006
When I think back to when I started driving in 1981 and regular unleaded was $0.799 that sure seems like a big increase. Gasoline is 3x the cost.
But if I look at it from the standpoint of inflation, after 25 years that would be a 4.5% increase per year.
So perhaps it's a little over the rate of inflation when viewed over a long period. But the price of $2.499 is not too out of line with what you would expect given the rate of inflation over the past 25 years.
I know the price of fuel hurts, the sudden jumps are annoying.
I know the numbers probably don't make you feel any better.
However, I think it's an unrealistic expectation to look at long term inflation, increased demand for oil world wide, and many other factors and still expect to expect to pay only $1.50/gallon of fuel.
It's interesting to look at our own governments energy information regarding prices and demand.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/perspectives.pdf
However, if you look at fuel prices over the past 20-25 years,I believe things are closer to even with inflation.
For years, fuel lagged the rate of inflation.
I have fuel price data on my PDA and on 11/14/2001 I paid $0.979/gallon of fuel. The highest I've paid so far for regular unleaded was $3.029 on 9/1/2005.
My last fill-up was at $2.499 on 4/11/2006
When I think back to when I started driving in 1981 and regular unleaded was $0.799 that sure seems like a big increase. Gasoline is 3x the cost.
But if I look at it from the standpoint of inflation, after 25 years that would be a 4.5% increase per year.
So perhaps it's a little over the rate of inflation when viewed over a long period. But the price of $2.499 is not too out of line with what you would expect given the rate of inflation over the past 25 years.
I know the price of fuel hurts, the sudden jumps are annoying.
I know the numbers probably don't make you feel any better.
However, I think it's an unrealistic expectation to look at long term inflation, increased demand for oil world wide, and many other factors and still expect to expect to pay only $1.50/gallon of fuel.
It's interesting to look at our own governments energy information regarding prices and demand.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/perspectives.pdf
I've looked back sort of the way java did. But, if you all remember the oil crisis in the 70's, looked what happened from then until now. First, the big buzz word was efficiency. Cars got smaller, there was a big initial investment on solar, wind power, ocean thermal energy, etc. etc. all kinds of alternative power that, if built, would have worked. Second, government rebates on updating your insulation on your homes, etc. etc. slowing water consumption.... then gas prices "mysteriously" started coming down over the next years. And then, all the efficiency hype went away. Case in point, look at the automotive industry from mid to late 70's to recent. Fuel enconomy got better then worse. Now, it's the same cycle all over again and I'll bet the same exact scenario will happen again.
Yeah, and if you see a male driving an SUV, he must be heading out to the jeep trails to wrestle a deer bare handed to drag home to feed his family.
Although I still totally get your point about "soft n cuddly" rides tacked onto truck chassis.
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