Wear in PPM vs Catastrophic Failure?

Darryl · Jan 18, 2004

Ok guys, in another thread I started (Fess Up, who is using 20wt oil in a 30wt motor) I got some great answers on possibly more wear metals in the form of PPM.

I am not at all worried about my motor lasting 250,000 miles vs 205,000 by switching to a lighter weight oil.

What I am worried about is a complete and total failure because I went with a 0w-20 vs 10w-30 on a motor that doesn't call for 0w-20.

I am not looking for crystal ball fortune telling, just all of your personal opinions and theories on the "Big Bang".

Darryl

Loose in, tight off?
Drive it in deeper.

haley10 · Jan 18, 2004

What engine are we talking about???

Darryl · Jan 18, 2004

Dodge Dakota, pushrod, low RPM V6 that lives in the 1800-3500 RPM range "most"

of the time.

Darryl

haley10 · Jan 18, 2004

Why are you trying 20 wt.?? What problem will it solve??

Just curious.

TooSlick · Jan 18, 2004

If you want to run a 0w-20 or 5w-20, I'd look for one that has a high temp/high shear viscosity of at least 2.9 Cp. That is the minimum spec for xw-30 grades, according to the Society of Automotive Engineers. A shear stable, 0w-20 or 5w-20 with HT/HS > 2.9 Cp should provide bearing/valvetrain protection comparable to a petroleum based 5w-30 or 10w-30 ....

As I recall, the M1, 0w-20 has a HT/HS of 2.6 Cp, so it's not a good candidate! I'd go with Redline, Amsoil, Synergyn or perhaps Torco, in an Xw-20 grade.

Ted

GROUCHO MARX · Jan 19, 2004

Darryl, first things first. Make sure you have the ball joints inspected on your Dakota. They seem to have a problem.

buster · Jan 19, 2004

quote:

I'd go with Redline, Amsoil, Synergyn or perhaps Torco, in an Xw-20 grade.

Couldn't disagree more. Mobil 1 0w-20 is a great oil. Tooslick, you havn't looked at the UOA's I take it? Mobil 1 0w-20 has more esters, boron and Moly.

Here is an example: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001191

Tooslick, I think UOA's are a better tool to use then benchmark tests. I think Amsoil relies too much on that which is why 90% of the time there numbers are irrelevant.

[ January 19, 2004, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

satterfi · Jan 19, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by buster:
Mobil 1 0w-20 is a great oil.

Maybe, in a car that calls for a xW-20.

I'm an HTHS snob. I want 3.6 cP minimum for my cars, 4.1 for the bikes.

If you search this site or do a goggle search, you'll find reports that engine wear suffers with HTHS oils below 2.8 cP.

Darryl · Jan 19, 2004

Groucho Marx, ball joints are fine, but thanks for asking.

I have simply been toying with the idea of switching to a 20wt based on the fact that Ford made the change to 20wt in motors that they originally specd Xw-30 and I have not heard of a single failure TOTALLY DUE to the thinner oil.

Darryl

Spector · Jan 19, 2004

To answer your question, IMO none of the oils in question would cause catastrophic failure if used in a reasonable OCI.

Darryl · Jan 19, 2004

Thanks Spector, thats the kind of answer I was hoping for

Darryl

Robbie Alexander · Jan 19, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Darryl:
-*-*
I am not looking for crystal ball fortune telling, just all of your personal opinions and theories on the "Big Bang".

*-*-

Well no longer an opinion, the big bang never happened! Thanks to Mr. Hubble Telescope we know it never did happen... just another anti- God myth.
Anyways, back to your question.

Do you burn oil or have other consumption issues?
If not, I'd give it a whirl and use UOA's to look at the trends. If it concerns you, then Do a normal 3K and sample. Then by the time it comes in you'll know if you can do a 4K or 5K, etceteras.

I can't see how even if it was BAD in the long run, doing a few short OCI's would do any damage.
Besides, if it does fight to stay "normal" these oils I think would have some "MOLY" and that would allow you to at least PLATE some UP. Hey, then even if you drained that oil You may do like I have and still get to keep the extra MPG... for how long I donno but maybe at least 14K, that's where I am at withou moly and my MPG is still up there
(it jumped when I added the Moly and after I drained the moly it stayed up there so far).

-> have a nice day!

buster · Jan 19, 2004

quote:

Well no longer an opinion, the big bang never happened! Thanks to Mr. Hubble Telescope we know it never did happen... just another anti- God myth

Whoah, where did you here this? Robbie, your not one of these Christian Science Monitor, god created earth in exactly 7 days guy's are you?

Darryl · Jan 19, 2004

I am really leaning towards the Mobil 1 0w-20 with 3,000 OCI's. I'm brand loyal to M1 for a many number of reasons (some really lame

).

However, I keep seeing those main bearings and valve train parts in my head as I drive and the 20wt scares the bejesus out of me

Darryl

Robbie Alexander · Jan 19, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by buster:

quote:

Well no longer an opinion, the big bang never happened! Thanks to Mr. Hubble Telescope we know it never did happen... just another anti- God myth

Click to expand...

Whoah, where did you here this? Robbie, your not one of these Christian Science Monitor, god created earth in exactly 7 days guy's are you?

Both on a couple shows both religious and regular programming, also there was some radio shows awhile ago... Anyway, there is a lot more there than the translation shows on the surface and yet no more. I think It could have happened as easily in 7 days as we know or more likely say even 700Million Years (whatever)- so no I'm not one of those.. I actually don't like "normal" "religion".
Religion is the retelling of LIES. Look it up in an OED. But as far as the events taking place and there being a God who will one day be All-In-All
with a relationship with His People... The God of the Bible: of Abraham, Izhak, Jaakob/Israel; The Holy one of Israel, Etceteras, This One True God, Yes, I believe in HIM (I AM), I believe He is Creator of all and there are no other gods before Him, even if in my weakness I fall... there's more but were off topic

Jakebrake · Jan 19, 2004

In So. Cal I would use Mobil 1 10W-30 instead of 0W-20...better for that motor in your climate I think.

JohnBrowning · Jan 19, 2004

Well, According to GM anything under 150 PPM is ok for wear metals. Now what ok means is another story all to gether! I am sure it has something to do with their planned life cycle. So with out knowing that the 150 PPM limit does not mean much.

Satterfi, I too am an HTHS snob!! I get nervious as well if the HTHS is below 3.6. I am currebtly at HTHS 4.6 and loveing it with my Redline 5W40.

buster, If one big bang had created the universe all of the planets and moons would have to be spinning in the same direction. This is not the case! Science can be twisted just as easy as numbers. What difference does it make if it took him 7 days or 7000 years?

[ January 19, 2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]

heyjay · Jan 19, 2004

Well, at one time around here, 5W-20 oils were used as "winter" oils. The BPT was far superior to 5W-30 oils, and we didn't have access to good synthetics back then.

Everything from passenger cars to large Cummins diesel motors ran on this grade, with minimal apparant impact. Of course, if there is slightly increased wear, it's more than offset by an oil that still flows at -40 F!

I would suggest in a "moderate" climate driving empty, there might be slight fuel economy benefits along with slight HP increases. I'm not sure about the design of the Dakota motor, I would certainly follow-up with careful UOA to see if you're developing problems.

Using an xW-20 for one oil change interval shouldn't harm things in a catastrophic way. Compare a UOA from the oil you're currently running to a UOA from the xW-20.

HTHS certainly has relevance in very heavy use, especially in highly loaded areas like main bearings and flat tappets/camshaft lobes. To further confuse the issue, some drag racers use a VERY light oil to pick up HP, but the motor only has to last for one pass.

Actually, I thought "Big Bang" was the nickname the astronomers gave to Wanda in Accounts Receivable. Somehow it got twisted and the general public thought it meant something different!

haley10 · Jan 19, 2004

I agree with TooSlick on the HT/HS. M1 is good stuff, but @ 2.6, I think you will see rapidly accelerated wear with this grade.

I've seen some major gas mileage and performance improvements with some of these engines, by trying premium fuel in a brand it likes in warmer climates though.

This might prove more useful than trying a 20wt. oil.

haley10 · Jan 19, 2004

I don't think the link to the Honda UOA is relevant to this particular application. Very different engines.

Wear in PPM vs Catastrophic Failure?

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