We are in Norway

[JeffKeryk]

That is correct. There are private clinics in Canada where you can get many procedures done. To access them you must be from out of province and pay the full freight.

In general they do "day procedures" but some will have post op patients stay in a nearby hotel where you're monitored by a nurse overnight or for a day or two. If there are complications you would be admitted to a local hospital - which (while logical) is actually an abuse of the public system.

Yeah, you can game the system, pretty much any system, if you have the money. That just means the systems are rigged.
I have a great dentist. I asked him why he scheduled separate appointments for things that could be done in one. He smiled and told me he could bill insurance twice. Oops.

 

[ecotourist]

Yeah, you can game the system, pretty much any system, if you have the money.

To this point the government in Canada has restricted private surgical facilities. In general that's a good idea because it keeps the pressure on maintaining a good public system.

Private facilities have a role though. Some/many workers' compensation systems are excluded from the Canada Health Act. So they are free to arrange for care wherever they want. And if the quality is acceptable, the price is acceptable and care can be achieved earlier they will/may go with a private clinic.

 

[OVERKILL]

The quality of care in both Canada and the US is more similar than it is different, and I say this having worked extensively in both countries. Both suffer from underfunding in less populous and less prosperous areas while having world-class facilities in the large metropolitan centres in the more wealthy provinces/states. Ontario has the UHN facilities in the GTA, which includes the Ted Rogers/Peter Munk Centre for Cardiac care as part of Toronto General Hospital, a world class facility that specializes in cutting edge heart procedures, and where I had my surgery done.

As a few have noted, if the referral has anything to do with cancer, it's generally fast in Canada. Yes, you could pay to have it done quicker in the US, but the level of urgency is dictated by the potential diagnosis. I had an MRI done a couple of months ago (that came back negative) that was only a week wait and done at the local hospital. Had it been an MRI for something like a hip or knee or some other joint, I expect it would have been a couple of months.

As @KrisZ noted, the burden on the Canadian healthcare system has been increased massively since about 2015 when probably the worst government in Canadian history was elected and we brought in far more people than we had housing, or healthcare for, and the impacts on both of those things have been profound.

 

[KrisZ]

Here is an example of what it looks like US vs Canada for non-life threatening issues.

I have been experiencing a shoulder pain recently.
My wife found an orthopedic specialist and booked an appointment within a week. I went there past Friday. Literally it took half an hour to take the x-rays, see the doctor and get a shot of cortisone. And they booked physical therapy place that’s near me.

In Canada, I would:
- first have to see my family doctor. This could be an issue if you don’t have one, or he/she retired or quit the practice.
- The family doctor would send me to get the x-rays, which would likely be a week out.
- Once he/she receives the results they would send me to the orthopedic specialist, provided they diagnosed my problem properly. They could send me to some other specialist, which would waste even more time.
- After all of that, I would finally see an orthopedic specialist.

All of that would likely take over a month, probably even more.

 

[goblin]

So here's for everybody out there that is starving:
- I was starving.
- I went to the restaurant, ordered food, and then I was not starving anymore.
- Should I have relied on free food, I would have had to wait.
- Restaurants are better. Anyone starving should just go to the restaurant.

This is getting beyond ridiculous. Can we get out of this insanity, and switch back to Norway, or how small Norway is - anything that is not the art of ignoring room elephants ?

"Let them eat cake" is fun for a second, it becomes obnoxious when it's bashed in repeatedly with ears otherwise plugged to any attempt at sane discussions.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I would bet Norway does not have millions like here in the USA who pay absolutely zero taxes. Pretty hard to tax folks who earn nothing. Simple facts but..... THE END. As this will probably go off the rails into the forbidden zones that have no place here.

Nobody in the US pays zero tax.

 

[CKN]

Here is an example of what it looks like US vs Canada for non-life threatening issues.

I have been experiencing a shoulder pain recently.
My wife found an orthopedic specialist and booked an appointment within a week. I went there past Friday. Literally it took half an hour to take the x-rays, see the doctor and get a shot of cortisone. And they booked physical therapy place that’s near me.

In Canada, I would:
- first have to see my family doctor. This could be an issue if you don’t have one, or he/she retired or quit the practice.
- The family doctor would send me to get the x-rays, which would likely be a week out.
- Once he/she receives the results they would send me to the orthopedic specialist, provided they diagnosed my problem properly. They could send me to some other specialist, which would waste even more time.
- After all of that, I would finally see an orthopedic specialist.

All of that would likely take over a month, probably even more.

Yep- Here in Utah we have Primary Children's Hospital and they fly children in from all the Inter mountain States to this world class facility . Another hospital we have that gets patients from all over is the Huntsman Cancer Institute/Hospital.

 

[ecotourist]

In Canada, I would:
- first have to see my family doctor. This could be an issue if you don’t have one, or he/she retired or quit the practice.
- The family doctor would send me to get the x-rays, which would likely be a week out.
- Once he/she receives the results they would send me to the orthopedic specialist, provided they diagnosed my problem properly. They could send me to some other specialist, which would waste even more time.
- After all of that, I would finally see an orthopedic specialist.

All of that would likely take over a month, probably even more.

1) Yes you would see your family physician (3 or 4 days to get an appointment).
2) If sent for x-rays (which would often be available by walk in) you might wait 3 or 4 days for an appointment.
3) For a routine matter it would take 3 or 4 days to interpret the x-rays, type the report, and put it on your electronic medical record which would then be available immediately. If something serious was found (like a cancer) the radiologist would phone your family doctor. If the case was urgent the FP could ask the radiologist to call once they had seen the films.
4) You might see the family doctor again, or they could phone with the results, or you could arrange for a phone appointment (which might take another 2 or 3 days).
5) After a total so far of 2 weeks or less, on a routine and non urgent matter, a referral letter would be sent to the orthopedic surgeon.

That's how the process works with a family physician centered system.

If you can just call an orthopedic surgeon and make an appointment you could cut out many of those steps. But you might end up seeing the wrong specialist (shoulder pain can be caused by lung cancer, or heart disease for example). And you could find yourself in the hands of someone who decides to operate, when an injection or physio might have been the better approach. (As a GP/FP I always thought my job was to send you to the person who could best solve your problem, not a random name off a list of specialists). Or the shoulder pain might have disappeared meanwhile and you didn't need to see anyone.

 

[KrisZ]

1) Yes you would see your family physician (3 or 4 days to get an appointment).
2) If sent for x-rays (which would often be available by walk in) you might wait 3 or 4 days for an appointment.
3) For a routine matter it would take 3 or 4 days to interpret the x-rays, type the report, and put it on your electronic medical record which would then be available immediately. If something serious was found (like a cancer) the radiologist would phone your family doctor. If the case was urgent the FP could ask the radiologist to call once they had seen the films.
4) You might see the family doctor again, or they could phone with the results, or you could arrange for a phone appointment (which might take another 2 or 3 days).
5) After a total so far of 2 weeks or less, on a routine and non urgent matter, a referral letter would be sent to the orthopedic surgeon.

That's how the process works with a family physician centered system.

If you can just call an orthopedic surgeon and make an appointment you could cut out many of those steps. But you might end up seeing the wrong specialist (shoulder pain can be caused by lung cancer, or heart disease for example). And you could find yourself in the hands of someone who decides to operate, when an injection or physio might have been the better approach. (As a GP/FP I always thought my job was to send you to the person who could best solve your problem, not a random name off a list of specialists). Or the shoulder pain might have disappeared meanwhile and you didn't need to see anyone.

Plusses and minuses with every system.

Another pretty big deal for many, you need to take time off for all these appointments.

 

[goblin]

Another pretty big deal for many, you need to take time off for all these appointments.

Another overwhelming plus here is that if you don't have the money to pay for them - you don't get to take them at all. Which solves a lot of things.

Just curious - do we plan on gunning this conversation for another dozen pages ignoring that the term "Medical bankrupcy" was mentioned in the very beginning, but never commented on ?

 

[KrisZ]

Another overwhelming plus here is that if you don't have the money to pay for them - you don't get to take them at all. Which solves a lot of things.

Just curious - do we plan on gunning this conversation for another dozen pages ignoring that the term "Medical bankrupcy" was mentioned in the very beginning, but never commented on ?

Bankruptcy vs death. Hard choice…

• Data shows nearly 75,000 waiting list deaths since 2018-19, covering a wide range of surgical and diagnostic services
• No government discloses the data publicly despite shaming businesses publicly for mouldy soup cans found during restaurant inspections.

https://secondstreet.org/2025/01/15/15474-canadians-died-waiting-for-health-care-in-2023-24/

 

[goblin]

Bankruptcy vs death. Hard choice

Nope. Flawed argument, like the rest. It was established numerous times - in this very thread, by Canadians, that emergencies are treated in priority with no delays.

As for the link - however many Canadians died from waiting is still orders of magnitude less than the number of Americans that died from lack of healthcare altogether.

You can wiggle it any way you want and however many times you want - the fact that even a non life threatening emergency healed in 24 hours can throw your life away financially if you're not insured (and even if you are) is a disgrace. A medical emergency is stressful enough as it is. It shouldn't be throwing your finances down the drain.

Smuggly dismissing alternative (and working) systems as something to scoff disdainfully at is not making you right - it's just making it painful for others, because the first reaction it causes is to wish that you actually get to hit medical reality some day, uninsured or poorly insured, to bring you down to earth. And no decent person would wish you that.

So said decent persons will still wish you good health, so you NEVER get to hit this reality. But then you'll remain in your disdainful bliss, which is ok, as long as you don't keep explaining all smug how bad something that you don't know is.

Basically you're unable to take the a hint. Which is great, as it's a sign that you're doing well. And one has to be happy when other people are doing well, no matter what.

I, for one, wish you that you reach old age, healthy and painless, and that half a century from now you can still dismiss this discussion the same way, with no second thoughts.

 

[Cujet]

I'm sorry to bother with facts again, but Norway is close to three times the distance north to south what Florida is. About 1100 miles, and that's if we stick to Oslo > North trips, which would be like taking Miami as a starting point in Florida.

If we take the geographical south of Norway (like starting from Key West in Florida) - we'd have to add another 250 miles. And I'm being nice, as the southernmost point of Norway is more like Monroe county in Florida, not like Key West.
Lyngdal to Kirkenes is 1700 miles if you stay in Norway. Google would route you through Sweden and save you 150 miles.

Norway is small in population, not too large in surface area, but in no way small as a country. Sort of like Chile. And their road infrastructure is complex, as their geography is merciless. And you can drive very, very long trips there. In Teslas.

Once again - sorry for the facts . Stepping out. Baby steps.

I've driven in Oslo and and North to explore on the e5 or i5 and other roads there. Was light on traffic. Beautiful country, that's for sure. 30+ years ago though. The speeds were ultra slow, and the roads were one lane each way. I'm fairly sure it is not much different today, and I remember driving about 40-45mph on average. I can see how EV's would work well in Norway. We do nearly double that in FL regularly and I promise it takes me 2 charge stops to get out of FL.

Very different situation. My typical trips were 1350 miles, done in one day, in an F150. Requiring 2 fuel stops with the 3.5L Ecoboost. And ONE fuel stop with the 2.7L Ecoboost F150. Amazing. 15 Charge stops and nearly 9 hours more in a Model S long range.

 

[goblin]

In Order of Disappearance - the original movie on which Cold Pursuit with Liam Neeson was based, had the bad guy being chauffeured in a Model S. That's in 2014, so it was mostly novelty at the time. It's funny how I was seeing it as a sign of luxury, didn't know at the time that EV's were in an easier tax bracket.

Another amazing Norwegian movie, Headhunters, is also a car fan movie, as one of the secondary charactes had the most amazing W124 Wagon, in good condition. Everybody in this movie was nuts and was driving something interesting.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

I've driven in Oslo and and North to explore on the e5 or i5 and other roads there. Was light on traffic. Beautiful country, that's for sure. 30+ years ago though. The speeds were ultra slow, and the roads were one lane each way. I'm fairly sure it is not much different today, and I remember driving about 40-45mph on average. I can see how EV's would work well in Norway. We do nearly double that in FL regularly and I promise it takes me 2 charge stops to get out of FL.

Very different situation. My typical trips were 1350 miles, done in one day, in an F150. Requiring 2 fuel stops with the 3.5L Ecoboost. And ONE fuel stop with the 2.7L Ecoboost F150. Amazing. 15 Charge stops and nearly 9 hours more in a Model S long range.

****NOT aimed at you Cutjet****
You just made me think about this. I really do not expect anyone to have real good answers about this. I do expect this" "well, that is why you should have an EV and an ICE vehicle!" Ok.....
Just been curious about this for a long time. Since u mentioned it, that makes me ask. I never have heard people discuss this aspect of the EVs. What will happen if some place like say, Fla or La or Mississippi , you know coastal areas end up with all of these people with EVs. Then a massive storm comes and aims to and barrels over the place like often occurs..... Now, you have a lot of these people who must evacuate and get away in massive traffic jams. They not only need charge ups to leave and get away. That may not be the biggest issue even thought it will cause a lot of misery and trouble for many. The next thing that often occurs is this..... The storm is now gone and folks can return home to the devastation to see if or what they have to return to. Anyone in those areas knows this. Majority of time many can not simply afford to stay away from home, work and other responsibilities in the area. What will they do to return and try to function when most (like always happens) of the electrical services are OFF due to widespread destruction of the electrical grid in the area they live?

 

[KrisZ]

Nope. Flawed argument, like the rest. It was established numerous times - in this very thread, by Canadians, that emergencies are treated in priority with no delays.

As for the link - however many Canadians died from waiting is still orders of magnitude less than the number of Americans that died from lack of healthcare altogether.

You can wiggle it any way you want and however many times you want - the fact that even a non life threatening emergency healed in 24 hours can throw your life away financially if you're not insured (and even if you are) is a disgrace. A medical emergency is stressful enough as it is. It shouldn't be throwing your finances down the drain.

Smuggly dismissing alternative (and working) systems as something to scoff disdainfully at is not making you right - it's just making it painful for others, because the first reaction it causes is to wish that you actually get to hit medical reality some day, uninsured or poorly insured, to bring you down to earth. And no decent person would wish you that.

So said decent persons will still wish you good health, so you NEVER get to hit this reality. But then you'll remain in your disdainful bliss, which is ok, as long as you don't keep explaining all smug how bad something that you don't know is.

Basically you're unable to take the a hint. Which is great, as it's a sign that you're doing well. And one has to be happy when other people are doing well, no matter what.

I, for one, wish you that you reach old age, healthy and painless, and that half a century from now you can still dismiss this discussion the same way, with no second thoughts.

You have made quite a straw-man out of my argument and you’re attacking it very viciously, to the point you actually have an ill will against me.

Nowhere did I say that emergency or life threatening issue treatment was the problem with Canadian healthcare.

 

[goblin]

I have zero ill-will against you. I have a lot of ill-will against blanket statements that simplify complex subjects. You didn't exactly sound good-willed asking me why I came here. That was simplifying to the extreme. Let's not dig there.

Once again - I wish you that you never have to rely neither on the Canadian, nor on the US healthcare systems. Or that if you ever get to rely on the US one - that you see just the good side of it - of which there are many.

It's a vast discussion, which can not be simplified because the subject is complex. Dealing with it in depth would quickly fall into discussing politics. And even if it doesn't - it still would be unfair to keep hijacking this specific thread, which was about Norway.

 

[IndyIan]

Here is an example of what it looks like US vs Canada for non-life threatening issues.

I have been experiencing a shoulder pain recently.
My wife found an orthopedic specialist and booked an appointment within a week. I went there past Friday. Literally it took half an hour to take the x-rays, see the doctor and get a shot of cortisone. And they booked physical therapy place that’s near me.

In Canada, I would:
- first have to see my family doctor. This could be an issue if you don’t have one, or he/she retired or quit the practice.
- The family doctor would send me to get the x-rays, which would likely be a week out.
- Once he/she receives the results they would send me to the orthopedic specialist, provided they diagnosed my problem properly. They could send me to some other specialist, which would waste even more time.
- After all of that, I would finally see an orthopedic specialist.

All of that would likely take over a month, probably even more.

A specialist does take longer for a non-emergency situation, but for something like my hip pain this spring, I saw the doctor within a week, I got the xray the same day, a radiologist looked at the images and confirmed nothing was too terribly wrong by the next day, and I started physio a couple days later, and got it tuned back up again in a few weeks.
Physio is not covered by the ontario health insurance plan, but I have it covered through work benefits, and its like $80/visit so lots of people just pay out of pocket.
So probably the whole thing cost ontario health insurance plan $200? and the xrays being half of that. Then my benefits paid another $400 for 5 sessions of physio.
I've never been injured in the US, but some of my relatives have and even with travel health insurance, the advice is to make a run for the border back to Canada if you possibly can! But in our other travels we've never been billed enough for small issues to even bother calling our travel health insurance company. A doctor visit and a prescription in Australia was like $80, and a couple stiches on my sons chin in the Cook Islands was free, so we made a donation for their hospital fund raiser.
Also locally, our emergency departments are OK, I think we've averaged 2hrs, for simple stuff like xrays for twisted ankles. Last one was 5 hrs for an ankle sprain but they had some far more serious condition people wheeled in just before we got there.

 

[KrisZ]

I have zero ill-will against you. I have a lot of ill-will against blanket statements that simplify complex subjects. You didn't exactly sound good-willed asking me why I came here. That was simplifying to the extreme. Let's not dig there.

Once again - I wish you that you never have to rely neither on the Canadian, nor on the US healthcare systems. Or that if you ever get to rely on the US one - that you see just the good side of it - of which there are many.

It's a vast discussion, which can not be simplified because the subject is complex. Dealing with it in depth would quickly fall into discussing politics. And even if it doesn't - it still would be unfair to keep hijacking this specific thread, which was about Norway.

All cool, I think we agree more than we disagree.
Let the cooler heads prevail, it’s just an internet discussion after all.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

The quality of care in both Canada and the US is more similar than it is different, and I say this having worked extensively in both countries. Both suffer from underfunding in less populous and less prosperous areas while having world-class facilities in the large metropolitan centres in the more wealthy provinces/states. Ontario has the UHN facilities in the GTA, which includes the Ted Rogers/Peter Munk Centre for Cardiac care as part of Toronto General Hospital, a world class facility that specializes in cutting edge heart procedures, and where I had my surgery done.

As a few have noted, if the referral has anything to do with cancer, it's generally fast in Canada. Yes, you could pay to have it done quicker in the US, but the level of urgency is dictated by the potential diagnosis. I had an MRI done a couple of months ago (that came back negative) that was only a week wait and done at the local hospital. Had it been an MRI for something like a hip or knee or some other joint, I expect it would have been a couple of months.

As @KrisZ noted, the burden on the Canadian healthcare system has been increased massively since about 2015 when probably the worst government in Canadian history was elected and we brought in far more people than we had housing, or healthcare for, and the impacts on both of those things have been profound.

Deja Vu here in the USA over the very same scenario. Billions of tax payer's monies gone to places and people it was never intended to.
So one day when many folks who worked all their lives and paid much taxes into the systems are elderly and in bad need of their earned benefits , the money is predicted to not be there anymore. All gone because it went to so many others who did not even participate.