Water Pump Cavitation

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Originally Posted by rubberchicken
I am going to assume on the flavored water that your kidding. But this is classic metal erosion caused by cavitation, and something I rarely see outside of the marine world. Hard to tell by the pics, but does this plate / cover get replaced ? If its easy to replace, then by all means do- the pitting is only going to compound the problem.


Does not appear to be an easy replacement task, nor is acquiring another part to install. Leaving the damage in place without addressing it in some fashion does give me heartburn, but short of using a credit card to smooth some JB Weld over the cavities, I am not sure what I can do.

Still haven't convinced myself the JB Weld idea is too crazy to attempt...
 
Can't comment on JB weld...but we use Belzona metal and ceramic filled epoxies all over the power station.

Check what JB weld can handle temperature wise (submerged too, as that's an issue with Belzona)...I don't hate the idea either.

Some of the epoxies do better with cavitation than forged steel.
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Can't comment on JB weld...but we use Belzona metal and ceramic filled epoxies all over the power station.

Check what JB weld can handle temperature wise (submerged too, as that's an issue with Belzona)...I don't hate the idea either.

Some of the epoxies do better with cavitation than forged steel.


I am going to give JB Weld's SteelStik a shot. It is good to 300F and submerging in water isn't a problem (just won't set well if submerged).

It is a putty material as opposed to a liquid like the regular stuff, so I am more optimistic that I can properly form it into the cavities and get it flat enough using a putty knife or razor blade that it won't present an uneven surface once the water pump is in place.

I will have a few minutes before it begins to set evidently, so if I don't feel like I can make it work while trying to get it applied, I will be able to remove it hopefully and either try again or abandon the idea altogether if necessary.

All in all, I think a fix such as this is right in line with previous fixes I have applied to the car, my oil cooler line protection sleeve being the most notable among them (used a piece of my fishing tackle box and some zip ties).
 
I haven't replaced many water pumps, but it seems odd the impeller is that close to the aluminum wall. Is this a typical design?
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
There's something starting to gel in my mind...have looked at the pump design, as you described

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-new-premium-water-pump-t6056/20760120-P

the cavitation paths are the same as the volute flow divider walls.

What do they look like ?

The walls in the pump ?


No cavitation damage is seen on the pump unit

4C34AD05-F33B-4452-A27D-6B8664409BC1.webp
 
Originally Posted by The_Nuke
Originally Posted by FordCapriDriver
Improper coolant can also cause cavitation issues.

Yes, and proper coolant that has exceeded its serviceable life in both age and miles makes it improper IMO

Originally Posted by Silk
Missing pressed steel impellor blades are usually cavitation, not corrosion as most think it is.

My water pump was missing steel impeller blades for sure...although, it still has its plastic or fiberglass impeller blades fully in tact:
[Linked Image]




Missed a post...those holes in the impeller (make sure yours has them) are to stop cavitation/boiling under the impeller, in the trapped volume, allowing a little bit of recirculation.

Where the "fences" are, you can see at the thick section has striations directly from the high pressure to the low pressure...in the thin section, it'sstriations from high to low followed by pock marks.

The volute that's there is narrow at impeller exit (high velocity), then as it diverges substitutes velocity for pressure (Bernoulli).

If you are going the JB weld route, I'd smear the water pump with a thin layer of petroleum jelly particularly the fences, then bolt it up, remove it, and then remove the excess, making sure that the area of the fences was as tight as possible, maybe even addining a little gasket goo to that area during assembly...gut feel is that there's too much gap between the fences and the eroded plate.
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
I'm not sure I would attempt JBWeld this. I would find a a local welder and seek his opinion.

Too late! I'm already drafting the letter describing my success story to send to JB Weld in the hopes of being immortalized in their advertising next to the dude that fixed the bulldozer engine.

Originally Posted by KrisZ
By the way, since this is a 2012 model, was it factory filled with G-05 or the new Mopar OAT?

It should have been HOAT, but the coolant was in too poor shape to tell for sure. It is being refilled with Zerex HOAT though, I do know that.

DSCF1286.webp


DSCF1288.webp


DSCF1291.webp
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Do you know if the JB Weld is compatible with long life coolants? Just a thought before it causes other system problems.


I do not have any information that specifically states it is compatible with long life coolants, no.

However, I did read up on SteelStik at their web site and made an educated guess that it is compatible based upon the wording they used. With phrases like, "...industrial-strength polymer compound that can be molded into shapes or used to build up, patch and repair steel components. " and "...rated at a tensile strength of 900 PSI and will withstand temperatures up to 300ºF." I am confident that it will play nice with my coolant in the long term.

And if it ultimately fails on me and causes massive problems, then I will deal with it and cuss myself for trying the work-around in the first place. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened, and it wouldn't be the last either. I'm willing to take the chance, so it was done.
 
Originally Posted by The_Nuke
Originally Posted by StevieC
Do you know if the JB Weld is compatible with long life coolants? Just a thought before it causes other system problems.


I do not have any information that specifically states it is compatible with long life coolants, no.

However, I did read up on SteelStik at their web site and made an educated guess that it is compatible based upon the wording they used. With phrases like, "...industrial-strength polymer compound that can be molded into shapes or used to build up, patch and repair steel components. " and "...rated at a tensile strength of 900 PSI and will withstand temperatures up to 300ºF." I am confident that it will play nice with my coolant in the long term.

And if it ultimately fails on me and causes massive problems, then I will deal with it and cuss myself for trying the work-around in the first place. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened, and it wouldn't be the last either. I'm willing to take the chance, so it was done.


I hear yah, I was just giving you something to think about in case you hadn't. My fingers are crossed for you.
cheers3.gif
 
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Originally Posted by KrisZ
Tensile strength is when there are forces trying to pull the component apart. In this application, you should find out what is the hardness of this epoxy and how it compares to aluminum.


I agree I should have that information at my disposal, but I cannot honestly say I would use it correctly if I did.

No, this experiment is happening...I'm pushing it to prod without any QA tests; PILOT baby! (Production In Lieu Of Testing)

"I don't always test my code, but when I do, I do it in Production!"

This thing has taken on a life of its own at this point...I couldn't stop it even if I wanted to. It's happening, and I'm going to gain a bunch of sciences because of it
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted by The_Nuke

I agree I should have that information at my disposal, but I cannot honestly say I would use it correctly if I did.

No, this experiment is happening...I'm pushing it to prod without any QA tests; PILOT baby! (Production In Lieu Of Testing)

"I don't always test my code, but when I do, I do it in Production!"

This thing has taken on a life of its own at this point...I couldn't stop it even if I wanted to. It's happening, and I'm going to gain a bunch of sciences because of it
grin.gif



This sounds strangely familiar, almost like I'm hearing it at my workplace.
 
Originally Posted by The_Nuke
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Tensile strength is when there are forces trying to pull the component apart. In this application, you should find out what is the hardness of this epoxy and how it compares to aluminum.


I agree I should have that information at my disposal, but I cannot honestly say I would use it correctly if I did.

No, this experiment is happening...I'm pushing it to prod without any QA tests; PILOT baby! (Production In Lieu Of Testing)

"I don't always test my code, but when I do, I do it in Production!"

This thing has taken on a life of its own at this point...I couldn't stop it even if I wanted to. It's happening, and I'm going to gain a bunch of sciences because of it
grin.gif



crackmeup2.gif


Too funny, sounds like the current company I'm working for. Keep us posted, I'm definitely interested how this turns out.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC


I hear yah, I was just giving you something to think about in case you hadn't. My fingers are crossed for you.
cheers3.gif



It briefly crossed my mind, but most of my brain power lately has been devoted to figuring out how to make a lower radiator hose that will work on the car when all I have to start with is the old (leaky) one and a new one which isn't meant for this engine. The new hose is meant for a Hemi without the engine oil cooler, but mine has an engine oil cooler, which requires a molded piece of plastic to be in the middle of the lower radiator hose so the coolant coming from the cooler can rejoin the coolant flow headed into the engine.

No problem, right? Just cut the new hose in the middle and splice in the molded piece from the old hose, right?

Yeah, that's what I had planned on doing until I found out the new hose is smaller in diameter than the molded plastic piece that has to fit inside of it.
33.gif


No local parts place even carries the hose I need, and very few online places show that they sell it, even fewer have any in stock (none at last check). So I need to make this new, non-working hose work for me somehow...this could get tricky...
 
Will any of the rubberized drain couplers for ABS/PVC pipe fit that you could then use an ABS/PCV reducer / piece of pipe or something in the equation with some extra hose clamps?

I've seen this sort of hack before as well as galvanized pipe in the middle of a hose that was too short to make it fit. It's weird what can be thought of that works. Not that it's the best or proper solution but it will get you by.
 
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The 2 part JBWeld is good for 500F according to the label. Works great with aluminum in my experience. The erosion is caused by tiny air bubbles of hot air. You gave it JBWeld to erode instead.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Will any of the rubberized drain couplers for ABS/PVC pipe fit that you could then use an ABS/PCV reducer / piece of pipe or something in the equation with some extra hose clamps?

Hmmm, that may be the only good option I have at this point because I've tried to muscle that piece into the hose, and it's just not going to go. Not to mention, even if I did somehow manage to get it jammed into the hose on one side without destroying the hose in the process, I would then have to do it again on the other side of the molded piece to make the whole thing work.

I can envision me getting really lucky maybe once for that, but not twice...I'd be hosed if I got it one side, for sure hosed...pun intended

Originally Posted by StevieC
I've seen this sort of hack before as well as galvanized pipe in the middle of a hose that was too short to make it fit. It's weird what can be thought of that works. Not that it's the best or proper solution but it will get you by.


Hey, I have never met a jerry-rig that I didn't like!

I've certainly run across a few that were better left alone, but I had to try them out first before could decide whether or not they were worth it, right??
 
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