Voltage drop during cranking

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I finally got around to unboxing the Pico 4425A that I purchased last fall.

For its first use, I performed a battery test (one of the guided functions) on my wife's 07 Accord. Although the software declared the 51R battery to be fine, the cranking voltage measured 7.86v.

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Thoughts? The car has always had a longer crank than other K24's. The battery is a 4.5 year old AGM and the starter is a reman Denso.
 
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703A at 7.86V is around 5.5kW. What is the kW rating of the starter? I think my MB diesel starters are around 1.7-1.9kW, and my Cummins 5.9L is 2.6kW or something like that.

Ive seen claims that standard motors have a locked rotor inrush of 600-650% nameplate, while "low inrush" variants are more like 400-450%. If those numbers are correct, it certainly is feasible that for an infinitesimally small period of time, that sort of a peak output was achieved. It seems like it is in the ballpark.

In reality I wouldnt much worry about it. The reality is that if the battery and cabling ESR is around 6.8mOhm, then the battery can source around 1700A in a short circuit condition (I=V/R = 12/0.0068 = 1764.7A). Even a degraded battery can source pretty substantial short circuit current for a very small amount of time, because in a lead acid battery, there is a ready supply of ions in the electrolyte ready to rapidly move. The other reality is that the actual cranking voltage is much lower, for a longer (still short) period of time. That's more of what you need to be concerned about, since that's where the sustained current is high, stuff gets hot, battery conduction voltages drop fast, etc. The reality is that I barely saw a dip below 10V, so while I think a new battery at some point might be smart, its not bad enough to condemn. Its the longer timeframe where batteries that are going to polarize and drop will, and where the sustained high current will heat and bake things.

What was your sampling rate to get those data? Its interesting to see that little blip over 15V. There isnt a significant dI/dt, nor do I think this is that hugely inductive of a system (inductance with a rapid change in current vs time results in a voltage).

Id shop for a battery before the next winter if it was taken here. For you? Maybe a year if it makes you feel good, maybe longer if you test like this again.
 
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703A at 7.86V is around 5.5kW. What is the kW rating of the starter?
Denso catalog shows 1.6kw.

What was your sampling rate to get those data? Its interesting to see that little blip over 15V. There isnt a significant dI/dt, nor do I think this is that hugely inductive of a system (inductance with a rapid change in current vs time results in a voltage).
Honestly not sure. This was my first use of the Pico so I learn how to use the scope and the software. The battery test was a guided function within the Pico 7 software.
 
703A at 7.86V is around 5.5kW. What is the kW rating of the starter? I think my MB diesel starters are around 1.7-1.9kW, and my Cummins 5.9L is 2.6kW or something like that.

Ive seen claims that standard motors have a locked rotor inrush of 600-650% nameplate, while "low inrush" variants are more like 400-450%. If those numbers are correct, it certainly is feasible that for an infinitesimally small period of time, that sort of a peak output was achieved. It seems like it is in the ballpark.

In reality I wouldnt much worry about it. The reality is that if the battery and cabling ESR is around 6.8mOhm, then the battery can source around 1700A in a short circuit condition (I=V/R = 12/0.0068 = 1764.7A). Even a degraded battery can source pretty substantial short circuit current for a very small amount of time, because in a lead acid battery, there is a ready supply of ions in the electrolyte ready to rapidly move. The other reality is that the actual cranking voltage is much lower, for a longer (still short) period of time. That's more of what you need to be concerned about, since that's where the sustained current is high, stuff gets hot, battery conduction voltages drop fast, etc. The reality is that I barely saw a dip below 10V, so while I think a new battery at some point might be smart, its not bad enough to condemn. Its the longer timeframe where batteries that are going to polarize and drop will, and where the sustained high current will heat and bake things.

What was your sampling rate to get those data? Its interesting to see that little blip over 15V. There isnt a significant dI/dt, nor do I think this is that hugely inductive of a system (inductance with a rapid change in current vs time results in a voltage).

Id shop for a battery before the next winter if it was taken here. For you? Maybe a year if it makes you feel good, maybe longer if you test like this again.
What he is seeing is absolutely 100 percent normal for the.microseconds when the starter is starting to turn. Looking at the current and voltage waveforms there is absolutely nothing wrong with the car. Sampling rate on pico defaults to 1 megasamples per second.
 
Nice data.
Equipment envy...
Was engine overnight cold?

I see far different minimum voltage on warm restarts vs overnight cold when, watching my direct wired voltmeter each time i turn the key.

Gotten to point i can accurately anticipate minimim voltage observed by ambient temp and engine temp.
And how quickly amperage into battery tapers at 14.4v can often indicates state of charge, far better than battery voltage before starting, when battery is unrested.
 
I finally got around to unboxing the Pico 4425A that I purchased last fall.

For its first use, I performed a battery test (one of the guided functions) on my wife's 07 Accord. Although the software declared the 51R battery to be fine, the cranking voltage measured 7.86v.

View attachment 91978

Thoughts? The car has always had a longer crank than other K24's. The battery is a 4.5 year old AGM and the starter is a reman Denso.

The tester tests the battery, which is good. It doesn't test the application, it could be a too small battery for the application. So the tester is correct, a new battery of the same specs won't improve anything.
 
I'll be more concern on the charging side your ripple reads 202mV. I been told the lower the better and that around 100mV is consider good.
 
Sort of. It had idled for 2 minutes before being shut off and restarted for this test.
The sample rate of my voltmeter is a fraction of yours, but that overnight cold reading is always lower than any subsequent restart, even when coolant temp reads at the botton upon the restart.
 
The tester tests the battery, which is good. It doesn't test the application, it could be a too small battery for the application. So the tester is correct, a new battery of the same specs won't improve anything.
Actually in this case it does test the application. He tested the battery using the car as the load. The red trace is the amount of current that the starter motor drew while starting the engine. Blue trace shows how the battery voltage reacted to that load. This is the absolute best way to test a battery, starter and alternator because you are testing under the conditions that the car is operated in.
 
A load on a battery tests the battery. the tester is correct that the battery is good. If there's slow cranking it's too small of a battery for the application, or there's another issue.
 
What he is seeing is absolutely 100 percent normal for the.microseconds when the starter is starting to turn. Looking at the current and voltage waveforms there is absolutely nothing wrong with the car. Sampling rate on pico defaults to 1 megasamples per second.
Agree.
 
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