Virgin Mobil Delvac 1 Synthetic 5W-40 API CH-4/SJ

[mikeyoilnutt]

Test was done by Blackstone Laboratories
Aluminum 1ppm
Chromium 0ppm
Iron 2ppm
Copper 0ppm
Lead 0ppm
Tin 0ppm
Molybdenum 0ppm
Nickel 0ppm
Manganese 0ppm
Silver 0ppm
Titanium 0ppm
Potassium 0ppm
Boron 154ppm
Silicon 6ppm
Sodium 1ppm
Calcium 2107ppm
Magnesium 421ppm
Phosphorus 1090ppm
Zinc 1216 ppm
Barium 0ppm
SUS VISCOSITY@210F 78.6
Flashpoint 425F
Insolubles 0.0

 

[Patman]

It's interesting that this has no moly while the cheaper Delvac conventional has a small (albiet insignificant) 35ppm of it.

 

[porterdog]

Way more Boron in this one though (61ppm in the 1300)...

 

[Patman]

There is also not as much calcium in here as I had assumed there would be in this oil. Hmmm.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patman:
There is also not as much calcium in here as I had assumed there would be in this oil. Hmmm.

---

Maybe the esters in the base oil do a good enough job at cleaning that a huge dose of calcium isn't needed.

I'd like to see a VOA of the CH-I/SL formula since that's what's available now anyway.

 

[MolaKule]

The Boron additives are a bit cheaper than the moly's and act as detergents AND anti-wear additives.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
The Boron additives are a bit cheaper than the moly's and act as detergents AND anti-wear additives.

---

How come more oils aren't formulated with Boron? Is it hard to get a balanced package with Boron in it?

 

[sprintman]

I know trucks run D1 up to 100,000 miles. Can anybody comment on anything they see in this analysis showing how that is possible??

 

[TooSlick]

Patman,

What this VOA doesn't show is that the baseline TBN for Delvac 1 is 12.0-12.5, vs 10.0 for the 0w-40 and 9.0 for the regular 5w-30/10w-30. Delvac 1 is also completely shear stable, which you can't say for the 0w-40 formulation.

Sprintman,

Over the road trucks are typically running 20k-25k mile changes with petroleum oils as a starting point. They are running under steady state conditions and have 10-14 GALLON sumps.

You also have some designs like Detroit Diesels where they are adding a gallon of oil every 7k-10k miles, along with the oil added at filter changes. Finally, most Class 8 trucks now have an OEM by-pass filtration system that removes particles down to 10 microns, or a "spinner" system which is even more effective in removing soot.

So there are a number of factors that allow these very long drains....

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
Delvac 1 is also completely shear stable, which you can't say for the 0w-40 formulation.

---

I'd like to know the evidence behind this statement. How do you KNOW Mobil 1 0w40 isn't shear stable, and how do you KNOW Delvac 1 is? In fact, let's define terms. What is your definition of "completely shear stable"?

 

[Al]

I am relly anxious to get a sample in for my son's 200 Pontiac 3.4 L. It had a change with the TriSyn, SS and now the Delvac 1 Should be another 2 months or so. It will be about 6-7K miles at that change.

 

[TooSlick]

G-ManII,

Well, I've looked at about 100 oil analyses from the VW TDI engine and from various Mercedes diesels and I haven't seen a Delvac 1 sample thin out yet - unless there was significant fuel dilution. Shear stabiliy is also more of a primary design criteria in formulating HD diesel oils, so this makes perfect sense. By contrast,I've seen three analyses results from the 0w-40 and two of them thinned out a significant amount. Mobils own SAE papers also show this type of shearing behavior for the 0w-40.

Finally, the VI of Delvac 1 is significantly lower than the M1, 0w-40 - about 160 vs 185 - so that tells me they aren't using much if any VI modifier in Delvac 1. You'll note that Delvac 1 is a more expensive formulation, so they're certainly not cost limited as to basestock quality ....

Run both of these oils in an engine that shears the oil - like the V-6 Camry - and I think you'll see the difference right away ....

 

[G-MAN]

TooSlick,

Wouldn't soot in used diesel oil tend to negate any loss in viscosity due to shearing?

Also, what SAE paper are you referring to where Mobil states the 0w40 suffers from excessive shearing?

Finally, all things being equal, wouldn't a 0w40 oil have a higher VI than a 5w40 irrespective of the amount of VI improver used?

 

[TooSlick]

Soot does contribute to thickening, but only when you get above 2%-3% or so in a CH-4 or CI-4 formulation. Most of these VW TDI analyses have less than 1.0% soot and the EOT viscosity is 15.0 Cst, +/- 1.0 Cst. Delvac 1 the most shear stable 5w-40 I've seen being used in the TDI.

The SAE paper I'm referring to is #981444,which is actually talking about the 0w-40 trisynthetic and not the supersyn. However, I haven't seen a way to make a fully formulated oil with a VI of 185 without adding some VI improver. You might be able to do it will a high percentage of organic ester, but I think it would be a very expensive way to go.

BTW, I don't think the 0w-40 is a bad product by any means - I just think Delvac 1 is the best synlube that Mobil makes. With a little tweaking of the detergent/dispersant and antiwear additive chemistry, Delvac 1 could be a 25,000 mile gas engine oil.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
The SAE paper I'm referring to is #981444,which is actually talking about the 0w-40 trisynthetic and not the supersyn. However, I haven't seen a way to make a fully formulated oil with a VI of 185 without adding some VI improver. You might be able to do it will a high percentage of organic ester, but I think it would be a very expensive way to go.

---

I've got that tech paper in front of me right now and it clearly shows on page 3 that the 0w30 and 0w40 oils were the most shear stable of all the synthetics Mobil tested in the study.

Also, I've no doubt that Mobil 1 0w40 and 0w30 oils have some VI improver in them, but page 2, column 1 of that same paper states that the viscosity spread of these oils is achieved primarily with PAO "in conjunction with other unconventional (API Type V) synthetic fluids" and not with heavy doses of VI improver.

I suspect that Mobil 1 0w30 and 0w40 oils are more expensive to produce because of the esters used in them, but ExxonMobil keeps the retail price point the same as the other grades by having a lower profit margin on the 0wXX grades.

 

[TooSlick]

G-ManII,

Take a look at how these formulations behave under high shear rates, ie: 100,000 cycles/sec...I think this data speaks for itself, so I won't bother explaining it:

M1, 0w-40 is 14.7 Cst @ 100C
High Temp/High Shear is 3.6 Cp @ 150C

Delvac 1, 5w-40 is 14.7 Cst @ 100C
High Temp/High Shear is 4.0 Cp @ 150C

Amsoil, 10w-40 Motorcycle oil is 14.7 Cst @ 100C
High Temp/High Shear is 4.2 Cp @ 150C

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

I'd like to add a couple more datapoints. Also self-explanatory and supportive of what TooSlick has said:

Red Line 10w40 is 14.6 cSt@100C
HTHS=4.7

Red Line 5w40 is 15.1 cSt@100C
HTHS=4.6

Red Line 10w30 is 10.7 cSt@100C
HTHS 3.8

 

[Ken2]

quote:

---

Originally posted by G-Man II:

....
I suspect that Mobil 1 0w30 and 0w40 oils are more expensive to produce because of the esters used in them, but ExxonMobil keeps the retail price point the same as the other grades by having a lower profit margin on the 0wXX grades.

---

M1 0W-40 is priced higher and sometimes just can't be found. My local auto parts stores have the xW-30 and 15W-50 on their shelves and don't even have the 0W-40 in the catalogs from their distribution systems. I contacted a regional ExxonMobil jobber, and his price to a small retailer was almost $6/qt + freight.

Ken

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken2:
M1 0W-40 is priced higher and sometimes just can't be found. My local auto parts stores have the xW-30 and 15W-50 on their shelves and don't even have the 0W-40 in the catalogs from their distribution systems. I contacted a regional ExxonMobil jobber, and his price to a small retailer was almost $6/qt + freight.

---

Ken, I was just going by the price of 0w40 at the only store in my area where it can be found, AutoZone. There it is the same price as all other grades of Mobil 1, $4.99/qt.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
Take a look at how these formulations behave under high shear rates, ie: 100,000 cycles/sec...I think this data speaks for itself, so I won't bother explaining it:

M1, 0w-40 is 14.7 Cst @ 100C
High Temp/High Shear is 3.6 Cp @ 150C

Delvac 1, 5w-40 is 14.7 Cst @ 100C
High Temp/High Shear is 4.0 Cp @ 150C

---

These numbers aren't all that surprising considering the 0w40 meets the GF-3 fuel economy standards. However, you didn't address the SAE paper (which you originally brought up to support your position) that shows the 0w30 and 0w40 grades to be the most shear stable using CEC-L-36-A-90, which is identical to ASTM D4741.

Also, keep in mind that the 0w30 and 0w40 grades of Mobil 1 meet the ACEA A5 and A3 specs (respectively), and the ACEA test for "shear stability" is the Bosch injector test, CEC-L-14-A-93. For an oil to meet A3 or A5 standards, it must "stay in grade" under this test. In other words, no viscosity loss at all due to shearing is allowed for.