Unacceptable amount of cold valve tap?

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Howdy all. This is another question for the gm 3.3l motor in the ciera. Every morning this thing has a crazy amount of ticks when you first start it. It sounds as if it's only running on 1/2 qt of oil. Let's say it's so ticky that I do not like to let it sit and warm up. Now to be clear its not a knock, but sounds as if all the valves are starving of oil or are out of alinement, Then not even a few miles later it's completely tick free and much better sounding then the other. Now I'm comparing this to my 220k mile 3.3 buick that has no ticks when started even in neg 15f. I'm using maxlife 5w30 and 1/2 qt Mmo in the ciera, but I think it has slight build up, or alot as the car was only driven an avg of less then 4,000 miles A YEAR for the first......... 18 years. Last 2 years has been about 15k mile/year. Oil changes unknown, but it took around 4.0 qts to bring it over the full line. Normal for this engine is about 4.8. So I think it has about almost a qt of sludge?? After 1000+ miles the oil is still pretty clean. But I'm thinking of dropping the oil pan and giving the pick up screen a good clean along with the pan just so I can give everything a good look over. Is my theory possible? I have a video if you think thy would help. This car is very clean rust free, elder owned oldsmobile with 90k miles on it. That's about what I know about it. Thanksss hope it's not too long and all over the place.
 
Start with inexpensive solution, and work your way up - I'd go a full quart of MMO in your next fill of oil. Do that for a few short changes, and see if it settles down.
 
If I understand your note, you think that you have sludge, which makes it difficult for the oil to get to the valves on cold startup, which in turn makes them noisy and "ticky."

Taking off the oil pan and cleaning visible sludge is not a bad idea. Be careful that sludge comes "out" not deeper "in."

I would not use MMO as the other poster suggested, but would instead see if some rapid oil changes with a modern, lower-weight oil might help. I'm thinking synthetic and I am NOT thinking Maxlife. See if you can get the engine right "the right way." You have plenty of time to use goops and [censored] later... but you might find the right solution with oil alone.

If sludge is not the problem, you may need a valve adjustment. That adjustment would give you or your mechanic a definitive answer on whether the car has a sludge problem.
 
Mom's Caravan developed horrid valve noise after a 10'000 mile run on a cheap oil change. I added Risolene for 300mi before I dropped the oil & the noise persisted, maybe a tad better. Then ran GTX 10w30 then added MMO for 600mi. still some noise.I then did a short OCI & used Rotella 10w30 and the clacking dissapered. It has remained that way through out this winter.
 
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isnt the point of hydraulic valve lifters to eliminate gap and tap? ;-)

that being said, GM has issued more than one TSB on wrist pin/piston clearance issues. i.e. the wrist pin is at the lower end of tolerance and the wrist pin bore is at the upper end...affect moreso the 660 motors, but can be in ANY engine.
 
A couple more questions, I am thinking of going up to a 10w30. Syn or Dino is unknown at this point. Also If I cut open the oil filter and see no shavings, does this means no damage is being done and it's just all noise? I can live with the ticks just as long as it's not doing
damage. I already put in a 1/2 qt of Mmo, putting it about 1/2 qt over full. The engine feels very peppy sounds very healthy, has no odd putts or smoke/leaks. I'm not even sure if it has any build up, but it did have "dust" type deposits under the cap, By dust I mean I wiped it away and it broke up and small flakes fell off along with oil residue. I can't see any deposits looking in the fill hole, can't feel any under the valve lid, and oil is getting to the top of the engine as the oil cap always has oil on it after the car has been running. So maybe it's Just sloppy when cold Lol. Thank you for the replies. :-)
 
Just another Idea, as I have this issue on my Toyota - Injectors can be noisy - esp using E10 (for ?? reason) and they can sound like valve lash. But I'd start with a quality oil and filter. Delcos arent the MOST quiet on startup, IMO. So I'd use a Wix for that app and maybe MCSS 5w30 or Mobil Super 5w30 either in the new SN ILSAC GF-5 incarnations. Do not over or underfill the oil by more than a cup. I just went through this whole thing to get my Yaris not to sound like it is killing itself on a cold start - and that engine should be as clean as a whistle given its maint history.
 
If your lifters are sticky and I think they are go thin or go home. I would idle it with some 5w20 and a quart of kerosene! Use a PF52, it's longer.

Between my BIL and I we've had 3 of these motors with high mileage and none sounded bad.
 
Awesome is this an ACDelco PH52? And I will not kill my engine with this kerosene? I'm up to do it. And would sticky lifters go away after driving? If I leave the car idle on the first start it will tap away all day. But after a mile or 2 on the road all taps are gone for near the whole day. :-) cheerS
 
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Every GM 2.8/3.1/3.4 family v6 I've ever heard makes a horrid racket on cold startup... and then proceeds to run forever. It seems to be a combination of lifter tick, piston slap, and wrist-pin noise to my ear. They're just really thrashy engines, the later ones less so, but still a lot noisier than, say, a Buick 3.8. Unless this is a new development for this engine, I really don't think I'd worry. I certainly wouldn't get carried away with a bunch of "pour it in and pray" solutions like kerosene, MMO, Rislone, etc. unless I'd confirmed that there was a real problem.
 
^ The 3300 is a destroked 3.8 and "classier" than the chevy 60 degree motors. Supposed to be a Buick design, more nickel in the steel, etc etc.

The "52" oil filter is what you get when you ask for a filter for a late 90s s10 with the 4.3. Isn't PH a fram thing?

I would not put a serious load on the engine with the kerosene in there but you could rev it in neutral.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Every GM 2.8/3.1/3.4 family v6 I've ever heard makes a horrid racket on cold startup...


All of that post was true, but for some reason I read "3.3" in the original post as "3.1."

Nevermind... :-p
 
If you're willing to drop the pan, I do that, make sure the pickup screen is clean, clean out as much gunk as you can, and then use a product called BG Quick Clean. It's a farily harsh solvent/kerosene based cleaner. Put a can of that in there and fill it up with 5w30 conventional oil, and idle the engine per the instructions for 15 minutes. Drain the oil, drop the pan again, and again make sure the pickup is clean. Then do some short oil change intervals after that.
 
Here is a video. About 1/2 in to the video I go under the car and you hear it too.
 
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I have a GM with the 3.3 and they make noise.Many GM engines rattle at start up and sometimes at idle.If the noise goes away when driving and after getting warmed up,you probably dont have anything to worry about.

Dont put kerosene or anything else in it,especially if you think that you have a lot of sludge.If the engine is sludged and sludged bad,adding stuff to the oil may do more harm than good,it can loosen sludge that can later stop up something and cause oil starvation.

One way to check for sludge is to look through the oil fill cap,if the fill isnt baffled,you can get a really good look at the rocker arms etc.If you dont see sludge here,you most likeley dont have a sludge problem.

As far as a valve adjustment,this engine doesnt have a process for this,the rocker arms are not adjustable just like the arms on the 3.8.

One problem you may be having is running thin oils,these engines were not made to run XW-20 oils,they were designed around 10W-30 and in really cold weather,5w30.Some say that thin oils are fine but maybe not so much in an engine that was designed with clearences for thicker oil.

The 3.3 is a very reliable engine and should give you many miles of service.
 
That sounds like the injectors more then anything. The ones on my Corolla are louder then that! Seems pretty quiet actually compared to some other engines I've heard. My 99 Grand Am GT piston slapper sounded infinitely worse then your 3.3.

It's got some light piston slap as well - that clacking that comes in after about 30 seconds and slowly goes away.
 
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Originally Posted By: SL2
Here is a video. About 1/2 in to the video I go under the car and you hear it too.



Sounds like a fairly typical early 90s GM v6... I would say considerably quieter on initial start than a 3.1. I know you're comparing to your other 3.3, but I have to say they also seem to vary a lot from one engine to another, even of the same model. Back when I routinely got these as rental cars in the 90s (even with
As due diligence, I would put a mechanical pressure gauge on there and make sure nothing is afoot.



Cold weather probably makes it worse... about the most I would consider doing is going to a 0w30 oil to see if that helps. Definitely don't go 10w30!
 
I didnt watch the video but the pic of the engine looks almost identical to mine and you shoud be able to see into the oil filler and tell if there is any sludge.

I have a 3.3 and have used 10W-30 and even 10W-40 in it and it has not caused any problems.This car has around 225,000 miles and the only major engine work has been to replace the intake gasket.These engines are to use 10W30 and possibly 5W30 in very cold weather.

The 3.3 I have is a 93 model and the oil cap says to use 10W30.

A 10W-30 and possibly a 5w30 in really cold weather should do just fine in the engine in question and should give you many miles of service.
 
to my ears your engine is just being downright noisy due to age (aging components).
unless you wanna put in some serious mullahs to tame these rattety noise, no need to be concerned IMHO.

Q.
 
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