Two Idaho youths shoot a grizzly bear off each other

My Springfield Armory Ronin in 10mm has been great right out of the box. It was a Christmas gift from Mrs. Astro.

I had a couple of 10mm at the range last week. Here’s the Ronin.

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In checking the Springfield Armory website, it appears that they’re not currently offering a 10mm 1911. The Ronin was a reasonable entry in that platform, amongst a lot of more expensive guns.

They had an Operator 1911 in 10mm, which had more features, and a higher cost.

I can find it via Google, but not via the site, and I come up with this:

https://www.springfield-armory.com/1911-series-handguns/1911-ronin-handguns/1911-ronin-10mm-handgun/

Now, perhaps the only 10mm they’re offering is the XD series. Another good quality, reliable gun at about the same cost as the Glock. Hard for me to tell from the site.

https://www.springfield-armory.com/...dguns/xd-m-elite-38-compact-osp-10mm-handgun/

But the grip is short as it’s a compact. I find compact 10mm (and .45 ACP) guns a pain to shoot with the smaller grip. I prefer a full size.
 
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I would settle for my Ruger Black Hawk in 45 Colt heavy loads (300 gr cast at 1250 fps) Never had a revolver jam.
Agree, I have a 380, 9 and 38 special. All Taurus. Thing is in this case he got off 5 shots before the jam and that is the limit of a revolver. So a for a grizzly a revolver wouldn’t be to good

Wife and I no longer target shoot much, just on occasion, was a self defense CWP thing.
Any gun can jam, ours all Taurus each gun has been run hundreds of rounds. I was amazed at the limited number of jams or in the case of the 38 sp FTFs we had, most all when breaking them in. No kidding we used to go quite a bit and it is not an overstatement to say we have shot hundreds and hundreds of rounds through these guns

The 380 we have is a palm size pocket pistol, stupid small and kind of dangerous. Not too long ago I took all 3 to the range ran 50 to 75 rounds through all three, no issues and those three guns have been neglected for a year or two sitting inside of a safe, never been cleaned from the last time we had them out and wow, they were almost embarrassingly dirty going with the group of new people from my community to the range it was almost embarrassing🙃

However depending on ammo the 380 on two occasions kicked the shell into my forehead LOL the guys I was with pointed out my face was bleeding. I had no clue but two pretty good cuts.
Might get rid of it but if you want to carry you can literally pack this 380 into the same pocket you keep your cars keys

Ok, so how dirty is dirty? I have no clue, you can tell me by looking at the photos, I used to be nuts keeping them clean, took them out of the safe after sitting for a year or two, no cleaning, no oil and ran 50 to 75 rounds through them. Not one issue except the pocket pistol ejected two shells into my forehead *LOL* )not really funny)
This is how they look. IN a new home, need to get a small bench set up and clean these things. The 9MM is an AWESOME pistol, shoots like a luxury car and is most used. The 380 size you can imagine is punishing brutal to shoot and the 38sp in-between the two. My wife's gun is the 9MM and she bought that one because it's easy to handle and shoot.

I like the 38sp for simplicity but the 9 is really nice at the range. The boom and flash of the 38 is nice.
380? its torture but will fit in your jeans pocket if you want.

The Semi's are all older models now, not in production or better said many new generations have some out.

SO how dirty is dirty? 1st is the 9mm, 2nd 38sp and 3rd 380 (which I am sure everyone knew) I put tape only because I do that with any device serial# or vin I post online. Not sure why but just do. Not proud of how dirty, lost interest but will get them back nice one we are all settled here in the new house.

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Agree, I have a 380, 9 and 38 special. All Taurus. Thing is in this case he got off 5 shots before the jam and that is the limit of a revolver. So a for a grizzly a revolver wouldn’t be to good

Wife and I no longer target shoot much, just on occasion, was a self defense CWP thing.
Any gun can jam, ours all Taurus each gun has been run hundreds of rounds. I was amazed at the limited number of jams or in the case of the 38 sp FTFs we had, most all when breaking them in. No kidding we used to go quite a bit and it is not an overstatement to say we have shot hundreds and hundreds of rounds through these guns

The 380 we have is a palm size pocket pistol, stupid small and kind of dangerous. Not too long ago I took all 3 to the range ran 50 to 75 rounds through all three, no issues and those three guns have been neglected for a year or two sitting inside of a safe, never been cleaned from the last time we had them out and wow, they were almost embarrassingly dirty going with the group of new people from my community to the range it was almost embarrassing🙃

However depending on ammo the 380 on two occasions kicked the shell into my forehead LOL the guys I was with pointed out my face was bleeding. I had no clue but two pretty good cuts.
Might get rid of it but if you want to carry you can literally pack this 380 into the same pocket you keep your cars keys
You’d need a S&W 500 mag to count on a revolver stopping that big boy in limited shots - those things leave a 1” hole that’s deep …
 
You’d need a S&W 500 mag to count on a revolver stopping that big boy in limited shots - those things leave a 1” hole that’s deep …
While the performance of that round is truly impressive, my understanding is that it is a difficult handgun to manage. The muzzle energy is similar to a mid caliber rifle, like a 308, which means you’re dealing with that kind of recoil in a handgun.

You better get it right on the first shot, because the follow up is gonna take a while.

I would be more inclined to carry a 460 XVR - slightly lower performance, but still well above .454 Casull.

That S&W revolver can chamber .45 Colt, .454 Casull, and .460 rounds, so it is more flexible for training/shooting as well as tailoring load to need.
 
The XD series guns are made in Croatia and they’re good guns. Polymer frame. Grip safety. Trigger safety. Reliable. Accurate.

The 1911s are made in the USA with forged frames.
Imho, trigger safety and grip safety are iffy safeties - one grabs the gun and pulls trigger - it goes boom.
 
Imho, trigger safety and grip safety are iffy safeties - one grabs the gun and pulls trigger - it goes boom.
Grab gun, pull trigger, goes boom. Sounds about right to me. You objecting to that?

I can’t tell.

I am not a fan of manual safeties on a defensive weapon - one more thing to forget in the heat of the moment.

I’ve seen it happen to experienced people.

I prefer the Glock safety - which keeps it from discharging when dropped, but allows it to work without an additional action.
 
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That's basically firing pin block, not safety. If one pulls trigger and gun fires that means there is no safety. May be legally there is one, not function wise. With say 1911 or CZ with external safety one needs to practice to put thumb on top of safety effectively disengaging it during the draw. With a DA gun one can actually carry it with hammer down and no safety on, with a SA 1911 one has to put it on safety if chambered and cocked or to carry with empty chamber for own safety; well, some 1911s have grip safety, some are even DA.
Personally, I prefer DA, external hammer and safety.
 
Next, I’d be really reticent to shoot a black bear. If I made the mistake of getting between mama and her cubs, I feel like that’s on me.

Mama and cubs? Not really.

Mother black bears rarely attack people but frequently show harmless bluster, which makes them seem ferocious. Defense of cubs against people is mainly by grizzly bears—not black bears. There is no record of a black bear mother killing anyone in defense of cubs.​
One of the biggest misconceptions about black bears is that mothers are likely to attack people in defense of cubs.​
That is a grizzly bear trait. 70% of the killings by grizzly bears are by mothers defending cubs. But there is no record of a black bear killing anyone in defense of cubs.​
 
Mama and cubs? Not really.

Mother black bears rarely attack people but frequently show harmless bluster, which makes them seem ferocious. Defense of cubs against people is mainly by grizzly bears—not black bears. There is no record of a black bear mother killing anyone in defense of cubs.​
One of the biggest misconceptions about black bears is that mothers are likely to attack people in defense of cubs.​
That is a grizzly bear trait. 70% of the killings by grizzly bears are by mothers defending cubs. But there is no record of a black bear killing anyone in defense of cubs.​
I stand corrected, then. Thank you for that clarification.
 
Still quite scary…

American black bears? Not really. They have the potential to be dangerous, but it's pretty rare. Deer are more dangerous, primarily via vehicle collisions. But deer/elk with antlers have gored people.

I'm trying to think of the number of times I've seen a bear in the wild. Once it was at a distance with a park ranger watching over everyone making sure they didn't approach it. Another time I was backpacking in Yosemite and got up where my neighbors were talking about a bear and I rushed out and took a few blurry photos. They said it went through their campsite but didn't seem interested in looking for anything and ran away rather quickly. With my avatar photo, that was in Redwood Canyon in Kings Canyon National Park on a day hike. First thing I noticed was the sounds of claws going up a tree and noticed a cub going up almost next to the trail. Then off in the distance I noticed mom and then two cubs. I didn't approach it, so I wasn't breaking any rules. It just kind of stood there. I don't think it was terribly interested in us and eventually just casually walked away with those two cubs. And yes, it walked away even though the other cub was up a tree. They can easily track their cubs by smell and will usually just return later.

I've just sat around a few times taking photos of campground bears. I remember talking to a couple of other people who were just watching after a bear managed to get into a bear box. One guy said he tried confronting the bear but it bluff charged him and he backed off. I saw another guy throwing rocks near it, but it wasn't impressed. I banged some pots but it didn't really budge. I think what would have worked would have been something like actually hitting it with water bottles (and I had most of a case on top of my bear box). But I just got up on my picnic table and started taking photos. I've got this great photo of the bear lapping up the contents of a jar of mayo. In no way did it seem like the bear was dangerous. However, this bear was tagged and had a transmitter. The park ranger came along, started yelling, and that bear just took off. They respect the uniform - probably because they're allowed to carry weapons - paintballs, beanbag rounds, rubber shotgun slugs.
 
My Springfield Armory Ronin in 10mm has been great right out of the box. It was a Christmas gift from Mrs. Astro.

I had a couple of 10mm at the range last week. Here’s the Ronin.

View attachment 239535

In checking the Springfield Armory website, it appears that they’re not currently offering a 10mm 1911. The Ronin was a reasonable entry in that platform, amongst a lot of more expensive guns.

They had an Operator 1911 in 10mm, which had more features, and a higher cost.

I can find it via Google, but not via the site, and I come up with this:

https://www.springfield-armory.com/1911-series-handguns/1911-ronin-handguns/1911-ronin-10mm-handgun/

Now, perhaps the only 10mm they’re offering is the XD series. Another good quality, reliable gun at about the same cost as the Glock. Hard for me to tell from the site.

https://www.springfield-armory.com/...dguns/xd-m-elite-38-compact-osp-10mm-handgun/

But the grip is short as it’s a compact. I find compact 10mm (and .45 ACP) guns a pain to shoot with the smaller grip. I prefer a full size.

That's why I said something about Croatia. I was thinking something in the XD series which is modified from the HS2000 series by HS.

Again - not a firearm enthusiast by any means, but I do remember having a copy of Popular Mechanics in the 80s with their Miami Vice feature. It was on their cars, boats, and firearms. Don Johnson carried the infamous Bren Ten. I believe that was the first firearm to ever use 10mm Auto. Might have even been designed for it?
 
That's why I said something about Croatia. I was thinking something in the XD series which is modified from the HS2000 series by HS.

Again - not a firearm enthusiast by any means, but I do remember having a copy of Popular Mechanics in the 80s with their Miami Vice feature. It was on their cars, boats, and firearms. Don Johnson carried the infamous Bren Ten. I believe that was the first firearm to ever use 10mm Auto. Might have even been designed for it?
The 10mm was the brainchild of Col. Jeff Cooper and a couple of gun journalists (whose names escape me), that wanted the power of a magnum in an autoloader. By going to higher chamber pressures, and higher velocity, they intended to get more power than a .45 ACP with a flatter trajectory and the greater magazine capacity that the narrower cartridge would enable.

The Bren Ten was the first gun chambered in 10mm. It came out in 1983, but had some quality problems, and the company went bankrupt in 1986, not long after “Miami Vice” had made their gun famous. Not many were made.

Fortunately, Colt brought out the Delta Elite in 1987, a 1911 chambered in 10mm right as the Bren Ten went out of production.

The Smith & Wesson model 645 carried by Don Johnson after the Bren Ten was the first S&W large caliber autoloader, and in many ways was responsible for the array of large bore, auto loading handguns from S&W in the next generation, that came out in 1989.

The 10mm Smith and Wesson model 1076 (built on the same frame basics as the 4506, the subsequent model to the 645) was adopted by the FBI that year, rather infamously, as a response to agent losses in a shootout in Miami in 1986.

S&W offered a variety of large, stainless steel autoloaders in their “3rd generation”. Both 10mm and .45 ACP. The 1006 (10mm) and 4506 (.45) had the same basic fire control (DA/SA with a safety/decocker) and 5” barrels. The FBI gun, the 1076, had a 4.25” barrel, and was a DA/SA with a frame mounted decocker only.

Glock was next to market with their Glock 20 - which followed, in 1990, on the heels of their very popular Glock 19, and meant that Glock had a 10mm before they had a .45 ACP (the Glock 21).

When the FBI, rather famously, asked for a lower power load for their 10 mm, the .40 S&W was born, and the 10mm fell in disfavor. Very few guns were made in 10 mm from about the mid 1990s until just recently, when the cartridge underwent a bit of a resurgence.

Glock and Colt kept the flame alive by keeping their guns in production. S&W discontinued the 3rd generation pistols in the late 1990s. The complex machining and craftsmanship required to make an all steel gun like the 3rd generation was not cost competitive with the revolution in polymer frames.

These days, there are variety of manufacturers offering a 10 mm. All steel guns on 1911 platforms, polymer frame pistols from all the major manufacturers, and even revolvers.

I don’t really understand the appeal of a 10 mm revolver, because from a power perspective, it’s about the same as a .357 magnum. The advantage of the 10 mm over the .357 is the fact that you can put it in an auto loading magazine, while .357 auto loaders have always been troublesome because of the cartridge rim. Ref: the Coonan pistol.

Most 10 mm ammunition on the market today, is really just a large .40 S&W. The original concept of the 10 mm was a 200 grain bullet at 1200 ft./s. Or a 180g at 1300 ft./s.

The .40 S&W is, typically, a 180g at 1050 ft./s. Since muzzle energy is 1/2mv2, that 20% reduction in V is a 40% reduction (or slightly more) in ME.

Most 10mm ammo is loaded to that lower velocity, with 180g at 1050-1100 f.t/s. Typically. The range ammo I shoot in 10 mm is 180g S&B - which runs about 1100 ft./s. Not much more than .40 S&W and it is quite mild to shoot, particularly out of a big, all steel, pistol.

If you really want the performance of a 10 mm, you have to seek out manufacturers like Buffalo Bore, or Underwood, to get the original velocities, and power, for which the cartridge was intended.

There is a very big difference in ME, felt recoil, and performance between the “good stuff” and the typical 10mm ammo.

So, if you are carrying a 10 mm as defense against large mammals, you have a variety of platforms from which to choose, but you should be very selective about the ammunition, as there is a very big performance difference between properly loaded, full power 10mm, and the commonly available ammo.

And I suppose you could thank Don Johnson that any of it is available at all… 😎
 
Great summary!

The only reason I reload really . 10mm can be loaded quite warm.

Black bears are all over around here. Harmless really,

I have come up on them on trails but they just want to be away from human, One time my buddy left his plastic water bottle on a log, Bear crunched it. Also yes string your food up when backpacking but even then they reach for the rope and bag.

I was also under the false idea of mama black bears,
 
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That's basically firing pin block, not safety. If one pulls trigger and gun fires that means there is no safety. May be legally there is one, not function wise. With say 1911 or CZ with external safety one needs to practice to put thumb on top of safety effectively disengaging it during the draw. With a DA gun one can actually carry it with hammer down and no safety on, with a SA 1911 one has to put it on safety if chambered and cocked or to carry with empty chamber for own safety; well, some 1911s have grip safety, some are even DA.
Personally, I prefer DA, external hammer and safety.
A trigger safety, ala Glock, which many guns now have, is not a firing pin block, it's a trigger safety.

Different function.

You have to press the trigger safety to move the trigger, and then the movement of the trigger moves the firing pin block, which is internal to the slide, out of the way.

If it's DA, it is not a 1911. If it doesn't have a grip safety, it is not a 1911. SA and grip safety are integral to the definition.

You can carry a DA/SA gun hammer down, safety off. e.g. the Beretta 92.

But that Beretta, as is common to DA/SA, safety is slide mounted - and requires being moved up to go off safe - which is a different muscle memory than a CZ or 1911, which is frame mounted and down.

Frankly, if I am going to carry a DA/SA gun with the safety off, why have a safety at all? Get a decocker, so, DA/SA, and when done shooting, decock back to DA.

That's how the S&W 1076 (the FBI gun I mentioned above) works and that's why the FBI chose it. Same logic - we don't want agents to fumble with a safety in the heat of the moment, so, we rely on the heavier DA pull, just as we did with a revolver.

I am not a fan of external safeties, like the CZ, or the 1911, in carry guns. Grip safety, trigger safety, both work when the gun is gripped and the trigger pressed, no additional steps needed. No chance of forgetting.

But an external safety has to be remembered, and even with training, people forget that frame or slide mounted external safety. I've seen it happen in training.

That's why so many law enforcement agencies, like the FAMs, FBI, and others, issue guns without safeties. If those trained agents don't remember a safety, how successful will an average shooter be? Granted, the HRT at the FBI uses a 1911, but they are very specialized, very well trained, shooters. Different matter than a typical defensive use.
 
Yes. Taurus = jam. They should just stick to revolvers, like s&w.
S&W makes a lot more than revolvers.

Their pistols are among the very best, the M&P 2.0 has a great trigger, is very reliable and shoots very well. I know a couple of guys who compete with an M&P.

The 1989-1999 "3rd Generation" automatics from S&W have a well-deserved reputation as very well built, reliable guns. The criticism of the 1076 was never a matter of reliability or quality, but it was a big gun, and heavy, and FBI agents of smaller stature struggle to manage the big gun with its full power 10mm loads.

But in the hands of a shooter with bigger hands, and some experience, there is no finer big bore auto than those S&Ws.

Here is a 1026. DA/SA with decocker. A 5” version of the FBI 1076, which had a 4.25" barrel. A fairly rare gun.

33 years old. Runs flawlessly. Very accurate. Shown here with four different types of ammo. Not picky. Feeds them all.

In fact, instructors at the FBI would load empty 10mm cases into the magazines of trainees, between live rounds, to drain emergency action drills. The pistol didn’t jam on those empty cases, as other pistols would, the big S&Ws simply chambered the empty cases. Naturally, the gun went click, but a quick tap and rack, and it was back in business.

If a gun will feed an empty case, instead of jamming, you know that’s a reliable, well built, gun

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