Two filters that "fit" but differen bypass psi

[Odyssey USA]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: INTENSE
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: INTENSE
But it is drag on the oil pump albeit fractional. I'm shooting for fastest 3.7 and at least fastest auto 3.7 mustang this fall. Reaching that goal should be good advertising for my port work.

I wonder which would have the least delta P across the element?


Yes, by about 1/100th of one HP. It only takes about 1/2 HP to pump 12 GPM at 80 PSI. So a few extra PSI delta-P across the filter isn't going to even be measurable with sensitive instrumentation.
I asked for learning purposes if someone knew which would have the lowest pressure differential. In my engine building I've seen HV pumps switch to standard volume and regain 4hp-8hp a few times when a customer would bring one in for a refresh. Well, if I'm at a store looking at two filters, I'll at least give it a consideration which will ensure adequate lubrication, filtering, and the least flow resistance using the same viscosity oil in a competitive situation looking for an edge.


Go get a PureOne ... they flow well and filter better than anything else on the self. BTW, you will never be able to see any HP difference by swapping out oil filters. Like I said, the difference if flow resistance can't be detected.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451


Well, you don't know until you ask as I've never given a filter much thought in this aspect other than a Wix or Pureone.

 

[Odyssey USA]

Formula's are nice until your stuck and cannot "calculate" why something is happening. This happens quite often. Even in the age of multi thousand dollar simulation software at GM.

Obviously, hp is a reflection of work done.

HP= Torque x RPM/5252

So the parasitic drag on force by moving the extra volume of oil through a restriction and through the rpm range will not affect the amount of force applied through the crankshaft??

Less force(lb-ft)= a lesser factor in calculating hp. Sometimes it is that simple and that is the case here. BSFC goes down as well.

I've seen it many times and any competent engine builder knows these things.

We can debate this or you can go against the grain and say oil pumps aren't an area where hp can be lost or found. The gerotor pumps are much more efficient I will say but the fact is work is being done here. In addition, what you're implying is oil viscosity isn't a factor either.

Restriction to flow is a factor. Pumping more oil through a restriction creating pressue at the inlet side will reduce force applied rotationally through the crankshaft where power output is measured.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: INTENSE
Formula's are nice until your stuck and cannot "calculate" why something is happening. This happens quite often. Even in the age of multi thousand dollar simulation software at GM.

Obviously, hp is a reflection of work done.

HP= Torque x RPM/5252

So the parasitic drag on force by moving the extra volume of oil through a restriction and through the rpm range will not affect the amount of force applied through the crankshaft??

Less force(lb-ft)= a lesser factor in calculating hp. Sometimes it is that simple and that is the case here. BSFC goes down as well.

I've seen it many times and any competent engine builder knows these things.

We can debate this or you can go against the grain and say oil pumps aren't an area where hp can be lost or found. The gerotor pumps are much more efficient I will say but the fact is work is being done here. In addition, what you're implying is oil viscosity isn't a factor either.

Restriction to flow is a factor. Pumping more oil through a restriction creating pressure at the inlet side will reduce force applied rotationally through the crankshaft where power output is measured.


I'm not saying that oil pumps don't rob HP ... they certainly do of course. If it takes more crankshaft torque to operate the oil pump, then that is lost torque from the crankshaft that could have been turned in to HP.

What I'm saying is that the required HP to pump oil isn't as much as you think, as shown with the fluids formula to calculate the HP required to pump X GPM at Y pressure. That formula doesn't exist for no reason.

 

[Odyssey USA]

Well, the oil has to go somewhere up to the point the bypass could open. Force to drive the pump, I'd rather have go to the crank.

It may be fractional, buy why worry if I care about tenths of a hp? Let me entertain myself. lol

I'll take it if I can get it. If I find a few tenths, elsewhere...it can add up. I've already determined the fractional hp is worth the weight difference. In rule restricted class racing, you look for advantages. Well that has carried over into my advertising project car and that's ok to do whether you feel it's worth it or not.

Worry more about the people that this doesn't even occur to them, honestly.

Thanks for your assistance though.

 

[ZeeOSix]

If you want an oil filter with the lowest resistance to flow, then get one of the metal mess screen types (cleanable type). Not cheap, and don't filter quite as well, but supposedly low flow restriction ... probably good for an extra 0.05 HP at redline.

 

[Odyssey USA]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If you want an oil filter with the lowest resistance to flow, then get one of the metal mess screen types (cleanable type). Not cheap, and don't filter quite as well, but supposedly low flow restriction ... probably good for an extra 0.05 HP at redline.


Now you're thinking!

Please check my previous post. I asked which of these two would have the lowest change in pressure. I'm aware of the mesh screen type and I've never used it nor will I for obvious reasons. I've also known no reputable builder to do so. Now, they might for something like and Engine Masters competition but maybe not even then.

Thanks for your input though.

 

[ZeeOSix]

IMO, this is all "hair splitting" because the oiling system of an engine is typically ~15 times more restrictive to oil flow than an oil filter is. So trying to reduce a PSI or two of delta-P isn't going to really make any noticeable difference to the engine. In "theoretical" terms it will, but in real world outcome, you are in the noise level.

But, if you don't want to use a metal mesh screen type filter, then use a full synthetic media filter that is over-sized if you can. Full synthetic flows better than cellulose media, and over-sizing helps reduce the delta-P across the media.

 

[Odyssey USA]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
IMO, this is all "hair splitting" because the oiling system of an engine is typically ~15 times more restrictive to oil flow than an oil filter is. So trying to reduce a PSI or two of delta-P isn't going to really make any noticeable difference to the engine. In "theoretical" terms it will, but in real world outcome, you are in the noise level.

But, if you don't want to use a metal mesh screen type filter, then use a full synthetic media filter that is over-sized if you can. Full synthetic flows better than cellulose media, and over-sizing helps reduce the delta-P across the media.
Ok, that's useful! Thanks!

 

[SHOZ]

My Hyundai's OEM filter has a 20 psi diff spec. I have a pressure gauge on the in side of the filter. It's also a remote mount. I routinely see +70 lbs of pressure It appears it's somehow limited at 75 lbs when cold.

I would like to mount the sender after the filter like where the OEM pressure light sensor is but that has not happened yet.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
My Hyundai's OEM filter has a 20 psi diff spec. I have a pressure gauge on the in side of the filter. It's also a remote mount. I routinely see +70 lbs of pressure It appears it's somehow limited at 75 lbs when cold.

I would like to mount the sender after the filter like where the OEM pressure light sensor is but that has not happened yet.


That'll just be the bypass pressure on the pump.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
My Hyundai's OEM filter has a 20 psi diff spec. I have a pressure gauge on the in side of the filter. It's also a remote mount. I routinely see +70 lbs of pressure It appears it's somehow limited at 75 lbs when cold.

I would like to mount the sender after the filter like where the OEM pressure light sensor is but that has not happened yet.


That'll just be the bypass pressure on the pump.


Do you think the before filter location will read higher than after the filter?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Do you think the before filter location will read higher than after the filter?


There is always a pressure drop across the oil filter if there is oil flow going through it.