True meaning of "Resource Conserving"?

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Enlighten me please, if you know the answer, as this question has been bugging me since the day of purchase... Vehicle in question is 2020 Honda Ruckus.

Why does Honda specifically state in the owner's manual NOT to use "Resource Conserving" motor oil? It would make sense if the engine was air-cooled, but this 49CC ("GET" is Honda's engine series designation for it) is liquid-cooled and does not have a shared sump, so shouldn't be extremely hard on oil. Anything I'm overlooking?

Screenshot (1).png Screenshot (4).png

Yes it is a small 49CC engine, but being liquid-cooled and with frequent OCIs I don't exactly see how the "Resource Conserving" category would make a difference. Honda recommends 2500-mile OCI with the 0.6qt (~20oz) capacity. I do 500-700 mile OCIs though. Just because it has no oil filter (just a mesh screen), I'm a heavier rider than average, and CVT keeps this tiny "GET" engine at 7000-9000 RPM most of the time. (At >10k RPM these usually start floating the valves, and valve to piston interference happens.) What exactly about "Resource Conserving" scares Honda enough to include the cautionary statements in the owner's manual against it? School me please, legitimately just trying to learn here. This engine seems to be as close to a "normal" car engine as it gets, compared to its air-cooled rivals. Yet I haven't seen many cars caution against "Resource Conserving" oils, quite the opposite actually.

EDIT:
Also found this:
The former supplemental category, which was called Energy Conserving required only fuel saving properties from the oil. Resource Conserving requires further properties like:
- Emission system protection
- Turbocharger protection
- Compatibility with engines operating on ethanol containing fuels, up to E-85.


And my engine has none of these things... Unless E-10 fuel counts. I do however try to only fill up with Ethanol-Free fuel. But occasional tank of E-10 does happen, depending on ethanol-free fuel availability.
 
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It means it has flat tappets or solid lifters and needs Zinc (ZDDP) for proper lubrication. The API sunburst seal specifies resource conserving on it if the oil is...resource conserving.

Resource, and I believe energy conserving, oils use less additive and have less phosphorous. Which means less ZDDP.

Using an oil with low ZDDP means you will risk flattening the lobes on the camshaft.
 

Graham Piccinini

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If it doesn't have a shared sump, then why are they saying it should meet JASO MA ?
Exactly my thoughts. No wet clutch, as clutch is sitting on rear axle and is only connected with the crankshaft through a belt inside the CVT housing.
 

ZeeOSix

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Exactly my thoughts. No wet clutch, as clutch is sitting on rear axle and is only connected with the crankshaft through a belt inside the CVT housing.
What else is in the engine besides the the basic 4-stroke engine? Are there any reduction gears between the crankshaft and what drives the belt? They may want the oil rating for those gears.
 

Graham Piccinini

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What else is in the engine besides the the basic 4-stroke engine? Are there any reduction gears between the crankshaft and what drives the belt? They may want the oil rating for those gears.
This gives a view inside the engine:


And this is what CVT assembly looks like with the cover off. Clutch is on the rear axle, CVT variator is on the engine crankshaft. Connected by a belt.
CVT+internals+for+2019+Honda+Ruckus.jpg
 
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The owner's manual is a cut and paste job from other Honda motorcycle manuals. That's why they have the "non resource conserving" and "JASO-MA" specs in there. I've seen other manuals with cut and paste content that doesn't even relate to the actual motorcycle, just copied directly from another model.

No harm in following the owner's manual, though. Their oil recommendation will work fine.
 

Graham Piccinini

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The owner's manual is a cut and paste job from other Honda motorcycle manuals. That's why they have the "non resource conserving" and "JASO-MA" specs in there. I've seen other manuals with cut and paste content that doesn't even relate to the actual motorcycle, just copied directly from another model.

No harm in following the owner's manual, though. Their oil recommendation will work fine.
Their wording just bothered me I guess... A recommendation with no actual reason for such recommendation. As far as what I actually use - it M1 0W40 or Castrol Edge 0W40.
 
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Why does Honda specifically state in the owner's manual NOT to use "Resource Conserving" motor oil?
Honda lawyers not Honda engineers warn against Energy Conserving... objectively speaking EC is not additive... its an API mileage test that this "oil MAY result is an overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a whole" there is nothing in the oil to defeat a wet clutch...

JASO has approved 1,537 oils which covers virtually everything on the market including 0w oils that would qualify as Energy Conserving...

JASO approve list examples...

234 0w30 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
238 0w30 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
242 0w40 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA
243 0w40 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA2
244 0w50 Energy Release SN 4T Jaso MA2

389 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 Jaso MA
387 0w30 Honda Ultra G4 Jaso MA
401 0w30 Pro Honda HP4 Jaso MA
 
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It means it has flat tappets or solid lifters and needs Zinc (ZDDP) for proper lubrication. The API sunburst seal specifies resource conserving on it if the oil is...resource conserving.

Resource, and I believe energy conserving, oils use less additive and have less phosphorous. Which means less ZDDP.

Using an oil with low ZDDP means you will risk flattening the lobes on the camshaft.
Negative...

More zinc = longer protection not more protection is a Objective
truth; as that which has been established as true by virtue of large
bodies of experiment and observations and Its true no matter if we
believe its true or not...

Thanks to BITOG data I think we finding the single most common
misunderstanding about motor oil is that higher zinc levels provide
greater wear protection. fact is more zinc provides longer wear protection...
but thats a moot point given the short oil change intervals owners
favor...

Zinc is not even a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc is
only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine.
At that point zinc must react with the heat and load to create the
sacrificial film that allows it to protect flat-tappet camshafts and
other highly loaded engine parts.

Establish your zinc sacrificial rate...

In our stock engines the majority of zinc is drained away during the
oil change... Just compare your Virgin oil samples versus Used oil
samples to establish the zinc sacrificial rate for your engine...

if you start with 1200 ppm zinc and used oil samples shows
1100 remaining then 100 ppm was sacrificed... if you start with 1200
ppm and used oil sample shows 100 ppm remaining them 1100 ppm was
sacrificed... Even at 100 ppm zinc is still ready to be sacrificed and
thus your engine is protected...

What about no zinc oils???

As you know most aircraft piston engines are air-cooled, so they tend
to run hot and due to this, they require the use of an ashless oil.
That simply means that when the oil burns, it must burn completely and
not leave any ash behind. Aircraft engines are mostly flat-tappet
engines and they seem to get along just fine without any ZDDP...
established
 
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Their wording just bothered me I guess... A recommendation with no actual reason for such recommendation. As far as what I actually use - it M1 0W40 or Castrol Edge 0W40.
The manual page you posted is exactly the same as in my motorcycle manual. Same images. Same text. Same layout.

I use motorcycle oil in my bikes. These little engines work hard and rev fast. There are many proven motorcycle oils that do a good job and don't cost all that much, so that's what I use.
 

MolaKule

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Negative...

More zinc = longer protection not more protection is a Objective
truth; as that which has been established as true by virtue of large
bodies of experiment and observations and Its true no matter if we
believe its true or not...

Thanks to BITOG data I think we finding the single most common
misunderstanding about motor oil is that higher zinc levels provide
greater wear protection. fact is more zinc provides longer wear protection...
but thats a moot point given the short oil change intervals owners
favor...

Zinc is not even a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc is
only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine.
At that point zinc must react with the heat and load to create the
sacrificial film that allows it to protect flat-tappet camshafts and
other highly loaded engine parts.

Establish your zinc sacrificial rate...

In our stock engines the majority of zinc is drained away during the
oil change... Just compare your Virgin oil samples versus Used oil
samples to establish the zinc sacrificial rate for your engine...

if you start with 1200 ppm zinc and used oil samples shows
1100 remaining then 100 ppm was sacrificed... if you start with 1200
ppm and used oil sample shows 100 ppm remaining them 1100 ppm was
sacrificed... Even at 100 ppm zinc is still ready to be sacrificed and
thus your engine is protected...

What about no zinc oils???

As you know most aircraft piston engines are air-cooled, so they tend
to run hot and due to this, they require the use of an ashless oil.
That simply means that when the oil burns, it must burn completely and
not leave any ash behind. Aircraft engines are mostly flat-tappet
engines and they seem to get along just fine without any ZDDP...
established
Synthesis (the chemical recipe for making this synthetic substance) of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) consists of two stages. 1) phosphorus pentasulfide (P2S5) is reacted with an alcohol (usually isooctyl and or isopropyl)) to give dialkyldithiophosphoric acid, or DDP acid. 2) the acid is then neutralized by zinc oxide. Hence, ZDDP. The resulting product is then heated to drive off any H2O and is filtered. By changing reaction conditions such as rate of stirring, reaction pressure, neutralizing process, the order of addition of starting materials, and the types and amounts of alcohol, P2S5 and ZnO, various flavors of ZDDP can be produced.


ZDDP is a molecule composed of phosphorus, zinc, and sulfur atoms because of the starting components.
ZDDp Structures-of-some-of-the-observed-forms-of-ZDDP.png
 
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Mar 13, 2013
Messages
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UK
Negative...

More zinc = longer protection not more protection is a Objective
truth; as that which has been established as true by virtue of large
bodies of experiment and observations and Its true no matter if we
believe its true or not...

Thanks to BITOG data I think we finding the single most common
misunderstanding about motor oil is that higher zinc levels provide
greater wear protection. fact is more zinc provides longer wear protection...
but thats a moot point given the short oil change intervals owners
favor...

Zinc is not even a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc is
only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine.
At that point zinc must react with the heat and load to create the
sacrificial film that allows it to protect flat-tappet camshafts and
other highly loaded engine parts.

Establish your zinc sacrificial rate...

In our stock engines the majority of zinc is drained away during the
oil change... Just compare your Virgin oil samples versus Used oil
samples to establish the zinc sacrificial rate for your engine...

if you start with 1200 ppm zinc and used oil samples shows
1100 remaining then 100 ppm was sacrificed... if you start with 1200
ppm and used oil sample shows 100 ppm remaining them 1100 ppm was
sacrificed... Even at 100 ppm zinc is still ready to be sacrificed and
thus your engine is protected...

What about no zinc oils???

As you know most aircraft piston engines are air-cooled, so they tend
to run hot and due to this, they require the use of an ashless oil.
That simply means that when the oil burns, it must burn completely and
not leave any ash behind. Aircraft engines are mostly flat-tappet
engines and they seem to get along just fine without any ZDDP...
established
It's the phosphorus that does the work - the ZDDP 'metabolises' in use to various phosphates, some of which form a layer typically referred to as "glassy" on the surface. The zinc ends up as an oxide or sulphated something similar so doesn't go away, it just turns into a different compound.
 
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