Tread life, traction, and rolling resistance--can I have all 3?

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I am thinking about the next set of tires for both my cars (I won't need a new set for a while). I am thinking about getting least rolling resistance tires, but I've found that they often cost more, and have a limited warranty.

After looking at several OEM tire sites, I have found two sold by Firestone Auto Care: Bridgestone Ecopia HL 422 and Firestone Champion Fuel Fighter that are comparable in price & warranty for what I'd put on the cars if I had to get a new set today, the Cooper CS5 Grand Touring at Americas Tire.

Now my question--since I've found tires that provide LRR & long tread life: have I just found two tires that have sacrificed breaking distance to get that? If I get 2 of those 3 factors, is it automatic that I'm losing the third?
 
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You can get tires that have all 3 of your criteria. Unfortunately, I don't know that they'll be #1 in all 3 areas but, good to great in every area. One tire that seems as though it may have all 3 and more(when I looked for myself) is the
Continental True Contact Tour. Give it a look on the tire rack and see if it fits your criteria and does it even come in you size.

Good Luck,

CB
 
For whatever reason, Tirerack didn't have it when I searched my tire size, but AT does--it is $140/tire. The warranty is definitely right (it does come in my size). My dad sold me the highlander, he said he and an in law both liked the Continental Control Conact Touring Plus that are currently on the highlander, for both tread life and MPG--so perhaps that line is very good for what I'm looking for.

I wish there was more specific info (test results, really) that we could use to compare breaking distance from tire to tire, fuel economy savings compared to Tire X, etc. I see that Continental rates the tire you mentioned as A for traction, which is probably the closest thing I can get to info on braking distance.

Originally Posted by Char Baby
You can get tires that have all 3 of your criteria. Unfortunately, I don't know that they'll be #1 in all 3 areas but, good to great in every area. One tire that seems as though it may have all 3 and more(when I looked for myself) is the
Continental True Contact Tour. Give it a look on the tire rack and see if it fits your criteria and does it even come in you size.

Good Luck,

CB
 
At this point, if I'm interpreting the numbers correctly, this Falken Sincera SN250 tire has an A rating for traction: https://www.falkentire.com/tires/passenger-car-tires/sincera-sn250/s-tire.

Problem is that in the CR study, this was one of the worst tires for wet braking--187 feet, whereas the best tire tested, a Michelin Premier AS, came it at only 140 feet. So you can have one of the worst tires, and still get an A rating? Interesting.... that is, if I"m interpreting the numbers correctly. For the falken link, my tire size is 225-65-17.
 
Long life=hard compound which isn't great for grip. The Honda Insight crowd uses Bridgestone Potenza RE92 which give 5-10 mpg more than any other tire, but they are done after 30,000 miles and are expensive.
 
Interesting, the BS page for that tire gives it roughly 6/10 in terms of fuel efficiency: https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tire/potenza-re92/


Originally Posted by atikovi
Long life=hard compound which isn't great for grip. The Honda Insight crowd uses Bridgestone Potenza RE92 which give 5-10 mpg more than any other tire, but they are done after 30,000 miles and are expensive.
 
Tirerack seems to like the bridgestone dueler h/p sport as, these came on the Outback and I have no complaints about them. The Outback has relatively huge tires for its weight, and in the first 10k miles they averaged ~1.5/32 wear so they'll probably be 50k mile tires for us anyways. They have a relatively narrow contact patch so I think we'll run them to near the bars without aquaplaning worries.
Tirerack
 
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Originally Posted by paulri
Interesting, the BS page for that tire gives it roughly 6/10 in terms of fuel efficiency: https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tire/potenza-re92/


Originally Posted by atikovi
Long life=hard compound which isn't great for grip. The Honda Insight crowd uses Bridgestone Potenza RE92 which give 5-10 mpg more than any other tire, but they are done after 30,000 miles and are expensive.



That must not include the LLR version then.
 
Same thing that I found with the Toyo Celsus tire, which was another one with the worst wet braking results in the CR study. It also was rated on the Toyo site as an A for traction. Leads me to think that either the CR study is borked in some way, or the test results posted on the OEM sites are.

Originally Posted by paulri
At this point, if I'm interpreting the numbers correctly, this Falken Sincera SN250 tire has an A rating for traction: https://www.falkentire.com/tires/passenger-car-tires/sincera-sn250/s-tire.

Problem is that in the CR study, this was one of the worst tires for wet braking--187 feet, whereas the best tire tested, a Michelin Premier AS, came it at only 140 feet. So you can have one of the worst tires, and still get an A rating? Interesting.... that is, if I"m interpreting the numbers correctly. For the falken link, my tire size is 225-65-17.
 
Originally Posted by paulri
Problem is that in the CR study, this was one of the worst tires for wet braking--187 feet, whereas the best tire tested, a Michelin Premier AS, came it at only 140 feet. So you can have one of the worst tires, and still get an A rating? Interesting.... that is, if I"m interpreting the numbers correctly. For the falken link, my tire size is 225-65-17.


You know, it's like that sometimes. For example(not recommending these for you), just saying. I loved the Pirelli P4 & P7 due to having good experiences with both. Quiet, good riding/handling mix, mpg, good in foul weather and tread life etc.

However, both have shown in testing to have longish stopping distances in the wet along with poor wet traction around the track. But, I love these tires for the driving dynamics they offer me and I have driven both tires through some of the worst weather(snow & torrential downpour) and felt confident & safe. Also, both are still highly rated even if they've slipped in the ratings.

So, find the tire that meets the criteria(checks the most boxes for you) and I think you'll be just fine.
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There is a technological triangle for tread compound that involves treadwear, traction (especially wet traction), and Rolling Resistance. In order to get an improvement in one area, one or both of the others has to be sacrificed. That means that you can NOT get great results in all 3 areas. At best you will get good results - and frequently to get "good" results, some other way of changing the triangle is employed, like reduced tread depth (something Michelin is using). Note: There are other ways of doing this.

- BUT - .

The term "LRR" is a bit of a misnomer as it means better RR compared to other tires with similar treadwear and traction characteristics. In other words it is not an absolute term. Many tires labeled LRR may have HIGHER RR values than some tires not so labeled.

For a vehicle manufacturer, tires can be an area where fuel economy can be enhanced (resulting in a larger value on the EPA fuel economy tests).. As a result pretty much all OE tires are better than any aftermarket tire for RR - even those labeled LRR - but treadwear and traction are sacrificed - which is why OE tires have such a bad reputation.

The problem is that folks buying tires in the replacement market want tires with good treadwear (unless they are going for grip!), so you won't find many tires with moderate RR values. There is a pretty wide gap between OE tires (with low RR values) and replacement market tires (with good treadwear or traction).

Wouldn't it be nice if RR values were published somewhere, similar to treadwear and traction values? What about a government regulation?

Well, back in 2010, a proposal was put forward, but it was withdrawn. There were 3 problems:

1) What test to perform. There are several different tests, but it turns out that tires can be compared using a single point test - quick and easy.

2) How to correlate different testing facilities. They decided on assigning a value to the SRTT (Standard Reference Test Tire), then adjusting the results based on those values. The SRTT is a commonly used reference where tests can vary by - say - temperature or testing surface. It's an old Uniroyal tire that Michelin makes using certified materials and they test to assure the tire hasn't changed from batch to batch (and if it has, how to adjust the results.)

3) How to express the result so that it is easy for the average consumer to understand. This is where the technical issues got in the way.

First, rolling resistance varies by tire size. So a way needed to be developed to deal with that. NHTSA (National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration) wanted EVERY size to be tested in EVERY tire line for EVERY tire manufacturer. USTMA (US Tire Manufacturers Association) pointed out that it would take 3 years of 24/7 testing to achieve that result - and during those 3 years no research could be done - and that just wasn't going to fly.

Second, NHTSA wanted to use RRF (Rolling Resistance - Force) in order to push consumers to buy smaller cars. The USTMA pointed out that consumers wouldn't buy cars based on the tire's rolling resistance even if they had that information. They would use the fuel economy values published by the vehicle manufacturers - AND that consumers would be better served if RRC (Rolling Resistance Coefficient = RRF divided by the test load) was what was published.

Then there was the issue of how to display this information - which kind of got lost in the 2 points above. One proposal was a traffic light (Red/Yellow/Green) kind of indicator without the actual values being published. Another was a bar graph showing where a particular tire was compared to the best and worst tire - but that meant that any new max or min values would result in obsoleting the previous published graphs.

In the end the proposed rule was withdrawn to work out the 2 issues mentioned above - the size issue and the RRF vs RRC. This was in 2010. In the meantime, there was this HUGE airbag recall that occupied most of the technical resources of NHTSA, so the Rolling Resistance regulations weren't worked on - until recently.

The publication date has been pushed back repeatedly - and just got pushed back again to March 2020. I am not optimistic.

And just for reference, here are my 2 webpages on the subject:

Barry's Tire Tech: Rolling Resistance and Fuel Economy


Barry's Tire Tech: Rolling Resistance and Fuel Economy (Continued)
 
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CapriRacer:tires::DavidNewton:oil
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One of your pages you linked to said that there was a huge range of rolling resistance for tires within the same size range--up to plus/minus 25%, which means that the RR of the best tires was just over half of that of the worst tires.

very interesting. Now the Continentals that I have on the Highlander now (Control Contact Tour AS) have been reported on two Highlanders, including mine, to increase MPG over the same Goodyear tire that was tried on both. On the Continental site, their page for this tire gives it 10/10 for fuel economy. So I can only imagine that this would be a fair amount on the low side of the RR chart for this tire size. It also was reported by these two drivers that tread life is pretty good. So now my OCD is wondering how much braking distance has been compromised. Too bad I'll never be able to see any test results.

Given how much the fuel economy tires are costing, and also how short the warranty is for some, I might just pick tread life and wet braking distance as my two factors, and just assume that any gains in MPG that I would have gotten would have either cost me braking distance, which is unacceptable, or reduced tread wear, which means my MPG gains would be nullified by more frequent tire purchases. The Michelin energy saver for the Highlander costs $17 more than the Cooper CS5 Grand Touring would, and only offers a 65K warranty instead of an 80K.



Originally Posted by CapriRacer


And just for reference, here are my 2 webpages on the subject:

Barry's Tire Tech: Rolling Resistance and Fuel Economy


Barry's Tire Tech: Rolling Resistance and Fuel Economy (Continued)
 
I had those Bridgestone Ecopia's on my caliber. They had pretty good tread life, but they were useless in snow (But you're in CA) and I'd rank them below average in the rain.
 
To the OP: CapriRacer is your guru.

My take on tires is to buy the best for the application. Longest life = lowest cost per mile.

I'm also of the opinion that tires & brakes should last 70k. When they don't, it's the operator that needs work. (Mine last well past 100k. Sometimes I rotate them. Not always).

The trade-off is wet weather highway traction. Some otherwise decent tires aren't as good as others. My rule of thumb is that all vehicles hydroplane at 55-mph. The kicker is to get back down under that speed ASAP. With lesser tires that can be worrisome.

.
 
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