Just changed my TP in the Motor Guard tonight. The consumption is up to about .8 quarts per 2000 mile filter change. That means it takes about $10.00 worth of Amsoil ACD per 2000 miles. I hate to go back to dino, but with technology closing the gap between dino and synthetic, I may consider it. I took a sample right before the filter change and it's going to Blackstone tomorrow. This will be my first UOA with the TP bypass filter. 14,000 rural mail route miles since the last drain. The engine has 265,600 miles on it , which is at least 16,000 hours by my estimate, and the valve cover has never been off of it. I wonder what it looks like under there. Since changing out the factory fill, it's never had anything but Amsoil or Mobil 1 in it, although I let a couple of those OCIs go too long with the Mobil One early in it's life. I wonder if that's why the consumtion has gone up so much in the last 50,000 miles. I sure wish I had installed a bypass filter on it within the first few thousand miles. It might be making a difference right now. So what dino are you using with the Frantz or Motor Guard TP filters? Ralph says some oils turn dark with use and others don't. My Amosil turns dark. It would be much easier to see when the oil is getting dirty if the additives did not turn dark from heat. Your thoughts on this? Thanks.
TP filter users: What dino do you like ?
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How long has the MG been on the engine? You said that it's your first UOA with the MG ..but is it your first OCI with it installed? Is it your first tp filter swap. What I'm trying to figure out is if the MG filter swaps are factored into your consumption calculations. Some oil is going to be retained in the tp element. Not to the tune (typically) of .8/2k ..but I have no idea how often you change the tp ..nor if you've noted the elevated consumption from the point of install
I didn't see you mention your current OCI. When do you swap out the sump ...or are you planning on just running a perpetual sump since you're using tp filtration? Keep in mind that it will take about 20k to have the original sump to a lower level than the added oil in %. That is, if you lost a quart per tp change, that's how long it takes of the original 6 quarts to be lower in % than the first added quart. If you're adding NO oil due to filter changes, than consumption is the only thing replacing the additives.
I surely do the two bottle Auto-Rx routine. I think Frank has an hour figure for your type of service (50
).
That all being said, you're mostly operating in full thermal saturation ..so start up wear isn't a major contributor to your total wear profile. The only thing, in your case, is that any wear is going to show up eventually due to your expanded mile/time lifespan. Sorta how "conservation" means something different to you than it does someone who's doing 8k a year. It's a different scale of economies. In your case any reduction in any wear means mega miles of added utility...while plus or minus 50k to the average owner won't mean anything in where they're going to retire the vehicle.
That is, I wouldn't want to lose the added cold start properties of a properly selected synthetic for the severity of your winters ...although a pan heater may cost you less than a synthetic will after you add it all up.
But, to your original question
, I think that MC oils, being semi-synthetic, are about the best deal available.
I didn't see you mention your current OCI. When do you swap out the sump ...or are you planning on just running a perpetual sump since you're using tp filtration? Keep in mind that it will take about 20k to have the original sump to a lower level than the added oil in %. That is, if you lost a quart per tp change, that's how long it takes of the original 6 quarts to be lower in % than the first added quart. If you're adding NO oil due to filter changes, than consumption is the only thing replacing the additives.
I surely do the two bottle Auto-Rx routine. I think Frank has an hour figure for your type of service (50
That all being said, you're mostly operating in full thermal saturation ..so start up wear isn't a major contributor to your total wear profile. The only thing, in your case, is that any wear is going to show up eventually due to your expanded mile/time lifespan. Sorta how "conservation" means something different to you than it does someone who's doing 8k a year. It's a different scale of economies. In your case any reduction in any wear means mega miles of added utility...while plus or minus 50k to the average owner won't mean anything in where they're going to retire the vehicle.
That is, I wouldn't want to lose the added cold start properties of a properly selected synthetic for the severity of your winters ...although a pan heater may cost you less than a synthetic will after you add it all up.
But, to your original question
tough service for a vehicle.
Gary,
The MG has been on the engine for the last 14,000 miles. I drive a little more than 2000 miles per month on the mail route and a few misc, other trips. I unstalled the MG right after the last oil change. I have been changing the TP about every 2000 miles. It takes 1 quart to replace what the TP filter holds. The .8 quart consumption I mentioned is in addition to the 1 quart added to replace the oil in the TP filter. Last night I changed TP and added about 1.75 quarts of ADC to bring the dipstick level back up to full. I did plan to try Ralph's method of never changing the oil, just the Ea15 FF filter, that should be good for a couple years, I hope. That plan is still in effect, depending on what Blackstone tells me within a few days. The Jeep is garaged in an insulated and heated garage every night, so extremely cold starts are rare. It does sit out for 2-3 hours in the morning at the office while I am preparing my mail load for the day. When it's zero degrees and windy, it does cool the engine down pretty cold, but still not as cold as if it sat outside all night. But most winters it's only occationally below zero during the daytime. Although, I just recalled that last winter I was driving our van during the day and the temp guage showed -17 F during the day. Maybe I should keep the low pour temps in mind. What are MC oils? I read a lot of posts on BITOG, but not nearly all of them so I guess I am not up on all the abbreviations.
Thanks,
Neal
The MG has been on the engine for the last 14,000 miles. I drive a little more than 2000 miles per month on the mail route and a few misc, other trips. I unstalled the MG right after the last oil change. I have been changing the TP about every 2000 miles. It takes 1 quart to replace what the TP filter holds. The .8 quart consumption I mentioned is in addition to the 1 quart added to replace the oil in the TP filter. Last night I changed TP and added about 1.75 quarts of ADC to bring the dipstick level back up to full. I did plan to try Ralph's method of never changing the oil, just the Ea15 FF filter, that should be good for a couple years, I hope. That plan is still in effect, depending on what Blackstone tells me within a few days. The Jeep is garaged in an insulated and heated garage every night, so extremely cold starts are rare. It does sit out for 2-3 hours in the morning at the office while I am preparing my mail load for the day. When it's zero degrees and windy, it does cool the engine down pretty cold, but still not as cold as if it sat outside all night. But most winters it's only occationally below zero during the daytime. Although, I just recalled that last winter I was driving our van during the day and the temp guage showed -17 F during the day. Maybe I should keep the low pour temps in mind. What are MC oils? I read a lot of posts on BITOG, but not nearly all of them so I guess I am not up on all the abbreviations.
Thanks,
Neal
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MotorCraft - best buy at WM for non-full synthetic oil
Let's do some numbers. I'm sure that there's an easier way to do this ..but it's not so bad after a few rounds here. I'm factoring your consumption in.
percentages of oil started with/added/etc.
2k 74/26
4k 55/19/26
6k 40/14/19/26
8k 30/11/14/19/26
10k 22/8/11/14/19/26
12k 16/6/8/11/14/19/26
14k 12/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
16k 9/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
18k 7/2/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
20k 5/2/2/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
22k 4/1/2/2/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
24k 3/1/1/2/2/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
In one year you've added 21.6 quarts of oil + the original 7 quarts you started with ..or nearly 29 quarts of oil for 24k. Now, if you continued with the MG, you would only use 22 quart for the next 24k and all after that. 10 quarts would be consumption ..so you're then looking at 12k OCI's (I think).
(let's check that)
8k would be 6+ 3
16k would be 12+6
24k would be 18+9
and for the second 24k with the MG (but as though it wasn't in use)
12k would be 6 quarts+5
24k would be 12 quarts + 10
Now you're not in too bad a shape ..but the oil can (most likely) carry that mileage on its own under your service. You don't have many warm up cycles per mile. Assuming that you don't have any leaking/clogged injectors, there's no reason that I can see that the oil should not survive 6 months.
You need to extend that tp change to 4k-5k. Otherwise you're at a little over a quart/1000 miles. Dino will cut costs, surely, but still won't fall into a sensible economy. You're relying heavily on the finer filtration of the filter on an engine that you're already deep into the life cycle.
If you see what I mean
Let's do some numbers. I'm sure that there's an easier way to do this ..but it's not so bad after a few rounds here. I'm factoring your consumption in.
percentages of oil started with/added/etc.
2k 74/26
4k 55/19/26
6k 40/14/19/26
8k 30/11/14/19/26
10k 22/8/11/14/19/26
12k 16/6/8/11/14/19/26
14k 12/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
16k 9/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
18k 7/2/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
20k 5/2/2/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
22k 4/1/2/2/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
24k 3/1/1/2/2/3/4/6/8/11/14/19/26
In one year you've added 21.6 quarts of oil + the original 7 quarts you started with ..or nearly 29 quarts of oil for 24k. Now, if you continued with the MG, you would only use 22 quart for the next 24k and all after that. 10 quarts would be consumption ..so you're then looking at 12k OCI's (I think).
(let's check that)
8k would be 6+ 3
16k would be 12+6
24k would be 18+9
and for the second 24k with the MG (but as though it wasn't in use)
12k would be 6 quarts+5
24k would be 12 quarts + 10
Now you're not in too bad a shape ..but the oil can (most likely) carry that mileage on its own under your service. You don't have many warm up cycles per mile. Assuming that you don't have any leaking/clogged injectors, there's no reason that I can see that the oil should not survive 6 months.
You need to extend that tp change to 4k-5k. Otherwise you're at a little over a quart/1000 miles. Dino will cut costs, surely, but still won't fall into a sensible economy. You're relying heavily on the finer filtration of the filter on an engine that you're already deep into the life cycle.
If you see what I mean
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I learned about filters that clean oil from a Frantz oil cleaner user. He told me to use Delo 100 30 wt. he said my engine wouldn't wear out and I wouldn't need to drain it unless I had a leaky head gasket or other problem that caused a problem the filter couldn't handle. I had a new 1964 Rambler American L head with the flat head 6. It had the stock bypass filter which was pleated paper and almost useless. The oil would turn black soon after an oil drain. I changed the oil a lot in those days. After installing the Frantz oil cleaner the oil turned clear and stayed clear. I was already using the, what we called RPM Delo 100. the RPM Special 30 wt turned dark because of the ashless additives. At one time Frantz had their own brand of oil which of course stayed beautiful with submicronic filtration. I still have a list of oils that turn dark and those that stay golden. After over 40 years the list is not of much value. It was a good idea in those days to avoid using multi grade oils for extended use. The polymers just didn't last and fouled the engine. When I bought my first diesel I expected the Frantz to make the oil as clear as the oil in the Rambler. I found out not even the Frantz can remove all the soot. There will be enough very small soot find it's way thru the paper and make the oil black. It can be very black and still be low soot. In a modern gasoline engine that doesn't put much soot in the oil the oil can be very dirty and still look very good. It's not like the old days when I was working in a full service Standard Station. I could pull the dipstick and "Sir it looks like you need an oil change, You could use a set of Atlas tires."
Looking at your figures, I don't see an ecomomical alternative either way. I know this engine is in it's "twilight years", but it runs so good I want to keep it going as long as possible before I replace it. I let the Jeep sit for at least several hours before I change TP, so I don't see any way to drain more oil out of the roll before removing it. Another thought I had was to go to a 10W-40 oil. I have an old Swisher trail mower with a worn out B&S engine that blows blue smoke when it's started. It consumes oil so I use straight 40 weight in it to reduce the consumption rate. If the consumption is due to worn bearings, then maybe thicker oil would be better? I still have good oil pressure. When idleing in gear at full temp, the guage never goes below 18-19 lbs. That's down a little bit from the 22 lbs minumim I had in the first 9 years of it's life. Also, I have no way to verify the guage accuracy. Going to dino could cut my oil costs in half or so, depending on what oil I buy. However, maybe I should not worry about the cost of the oil. There are other costs which are much higher. Tires, transmission, fuel, etc.
Ralph,
You once said you could feel the oil on the dipstick and tell if the TP need to be changed or not, just by how the oil felt on your fingers. I sure wish I had that skill, because I don't know if I'm wasting good oil or not changing the TP often enough.
You once said you could feel the oil on the dipstick and tell if the TP need to be changed or not, just by how the oil felt on your fingers. I sure wish I had that skill, because I don't know if I'm wasting good oil or not changing the TP often enough.
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If you crack the top of the MG at the beginning of that couple of hour pre-change out shut down, you may get most of the oil out of the roll/canister.
I didn't mean to indicate that you're on the end legs of this engine. You're probably somewhere beyond half way. It's just that (as you're aware) the longer term benefits of the filter are coming in a bit late.
I too doubt that your bearings are worn to any excess. The main wear item, aside from those who get a noisy lifter here and there, is the timing chain..but even that has a fairly long life.
I would be tempted to try DEO 5w-40 to see if it would tame the consumption after I did an Auto-Rx routine (on dino) for the 2 months that it will take to see if it's effective. You may have no real problem at all
I do agree that you've got to weigh total economy and sub economies here. I too, at one time, was a "courier" owner operator when I had a nuclear med delivery contract. I was way too young to understand how to best manage my mini-fleet. I did between 300-400 miles a day. Still made money ..but sure blew a lot of it needlessly.
You can tell if you're still filtering by seeing if the unit still gets warm. Now, as I said, it's surely not just going to give you 100% and then just stop filtering ...but you should be able to do a survey by picking a time after start up that you're going to check the filter. Something like 10 minutes. Your oil won't be up to full temp ..but should be flowing through the filter. Wait 2k, check at the 10 minute mark. If it's still hot, you don't change it. Repeat the process at 1k intervals. I venture to say that you'll get around 5k out of it without too much trouble.
Do you have this plumbed through a Permacool sandwich adapter?
I didn't mean to indicate that you're on the end legs of this engine. You're probably somewhere beyond half way. It's just that (as you're aware) the longer term benefits of the filter are coming in a bit late.
I too doubt that your bearings are worn to any excess. The main wear item, aside from those who get a noisy lifter here and there, is the timing chain..but even that has a fairly long life.
I would be tempted to try DEO 5w-40 to see if it would tame the consumption after I did an Auto-Rx routine (on dino) for the 2 months that it will take to see if it's effective. You may have no real problem at all
I do agree that you've got to weigh total economy and sub economies here. I too, at one time, was a "courier" owner operator when I had a nuclear med delivery contract. I was way too young to understand how to best manage my mini-fleet. I did between 300-400 miles a day. Still made money ..but sure blew a lot of it needlessly.
You can tell if you're still filtering by seeing if the unit still gets warm. Now, as I said, it's surely not just going to give you 100% and then just stop filtering ...but you should be able to do a survey by picking a time after start up that you're going to check the filter. Something like 10 minutes. Your oil won't be up to full temp ..but should be flowing through the filter. Wait 2k, check at the 10 minute mark. If it's still hot, you don't change it. Repeat the process at 1k intervals. I venture to say that you'll get around 5k out of it without too much trouble.
Do you have this plumbed through a Permacool sandwich adapter?
The MG is fed from a "T" on the pressure sending unit, and the return is through the oil fill cap in the valve cover. I am using the Amsoil swivel fitting and I can open the cap with it running any time and see the flow. The MG housing gets very hot, but I'll try the timing procedure that you describe. On the Auto RX suggestion, I have thought about this before, but have not followed through with it. I did not use bypass filtration at all on this engine until it had about 200,000 miles on it. (As Steve S. posted above, rural mail route miles are severe service) If the consumption is not from bearing wear, then could it be from sticky rings? Auto RX may help sticky rings, but it surely won't help worn parts, right? I was hoping that using nothing but good quality synthetic, I would never need Auto RX, but maybe it needs cleaned anyway. I have always done extended OCIs, but that was before Ea filters, so filtration was not nearly as good the first 200,000 miles. Also driving 20 miles or more of gravel roads every day can't do any good for engine life. For a while my Amsoil foam air filter was not sealing around the airbox so I was getting some unfiltered air into the engine. It will be interesting to see if the silicon count is down now that I have an Ea air filter on it. I have had thoughts recently wondering it I could get 500,000 route miles out of this engine. If I had installed a bypass on it when it was new, I would not be surprised if the made the half million mark. Now, I have my doubts. Maybe an auto RX treatment would renew my hopes.
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Well, I'd say that Auto-Rx is worth a try. Consumption by itself, in the absence of other issues, is nothing to be too concerned about. Your onset in the last 50k may or may not mean a long term wear item coming into play. It may just be a long term (forming) cleanliness issue coming into being in terms of the rings ..who knows?
I don't necessarily find your service "severe". Your cylinder ring wear is at the lowest. You're at full warm up most of the time. Taxis last a very long time, mileage-wise. I'd say that the severity for the engine is the potential mismatch between mileage and fuel usage in that the time at lower rpm levels and idling don't read as well on the odometer ..they read at the fuel pump. That is, everything is older than it appears.
Now the trans (AW4, correct?) takes a beating in true wear items. This is due to the normal shifting action. More shifts? More unavoidable wear. I'd surely have added filtration and cooling there in addition to synthetic fluid.
Since you have your MG plumbed this way, there are ways to indicate that it's time for a change. If the line is long enough from the sender port, as the fluid warms, it will drop pressure below the static line pressure. It would require a learning curve to see what it looks like from cold to warm to saturated ..but it works. If you could move the restrictor to a tee fitting, you can put a simple idiot light pressure sender on it. When the filter is new ..the pressure behind the restrictor will maintain enough pressure to keep the light out. As the tp saturates, pressure behind the restrictor will decrease. A gauge works here too. Temp senders will also work, but need the same "experience curve". A plugged filter will make the oil flow go dead ..no refreshing btu's ...etc.
I don't necessarily find your service "severe". Your cylinder ring wear is at the lowest. You're at full warm up most of the time. Taxis last a very long time, mileage-wise. I'd say that the severity for the engine is the potential mismatch between mileage and fuel usage in that the time at lower rpm levels and idling don't read as well on the odometer ..they read at the fuel pump. That is, everything is older than it appears.
Now the trans (AW4, correct?) takes a beating in true wear items. This is due to the normal shifting action. More shifts? More unavoidable wear. I'd surely have added filtration and cooling there in addition to synthetic fluid.
Since you have your MG plumbed this way, there are ways to indicate that it's time for a change. If the line is long enough from the sender port, as the fluid warms, it will drop pressure below the static line pressure. It would require a learning curve to see what it looks like from cold to warm to saturated ..but it works. If you could move the restrictor to a tee fitting, you can put a simple idiot light pressure sender on it. When the filter is new ..the pressure behind the restrictor will maintain enough pressure to keep the light out. As the tp saturates, pressure behind the restrictor will decrease. A gauge works here too. Temp senders will also work, but need the same "experience curve". A plugged filter will make the oil flow go dead ..no refreshing btu's ...etc.
Quote:
Well, I'd say that Auto-Rx is worth a try. Consumption by itself, in the absence of other issues, is nothing to be too concerned about. Your onset in the last 50k may or may not mean a long term wear item coming into play. It may just be a long term (forming) cleanliness issue coming into being in terms of the rings ..who knows?
I don't necessarily find your service "severe". Your cylinder ring wear is at the lowest. You're at full warm up most of the time. Taxis last a very long time, mileage-wise. I'd say that the severity for the engine is the potential mismatch between mileage and fuel usage in that the time at lower rpm levels and idling don't read as well on the odometer ..they read at the fuel pump. That is, everything is older than it appears.
Now the trans (AW4, correct?) takes a beating in true wear items. This is due to the normal shifting action. More shifts? More unavoidable wear. I'd surely have added filtration and cooling there in addition to synthetic fluid.
Since you have your MG plumbed this way, there are ways to indicate that it's time for a change. If the line is long enough from the sender port, as the fluid warms, it will drop pressure below the static line pressure. It would require a learning curve to see what it looks like from cold to warm to saturated ..but it works. If you could move the restrictor to a tee fitting, you can put a simple idiot light pressure sender on it. When the filter is new ..the pressure behind the restrictor will maintain enough pressure to keep the light out. As the tp saturates, pressure behind the restrictor will decrease. A gauge works here too. Temp senders will also work, but need the same "experience curve". A plugged filter will make the oil flow go dead ..no refreshing btu's ...etc.
When I say severe service, I am talking about the hours vs. miles. I put about a hundred miles a day on it but the engine is running for about 5 1/2 to 6 hours to put that hundred miles on the odometer. Also, driving stop and go on gravel roads can't be good for it either unless the air filter works extrememly well. You mentioned the tranny. I had to replace mine again in Jan. Installed a MG bypasss filter on it too. Hopefully I can get more than 120,000 miles on this one. Back to the engine oil bypass filter, If one waits until the TP, or any bypass filter media for that matter, gets plugged up before changing, then the oil will already be getting dirty. As I understand Ralph's statements, to avoid having to drain the sump, the TP must be changed often enough that the oil does not get dirty. Of course Ralph uses dino, so economy wise, it's no big deal. For me and my Amsoil, it's dollars. Thinking about it, if I do the perpetual TP change and add ACD oil every 2000 miles, it's only costing me maybe $140.00 per year. I guess that's not bad considering I make my living with it. By my calculations it's still cheaper than doing 15,000 mile OCIs with the Amsoil bypass and using EaBPs. And the bonus is I don't have to crawl under the Jeep to change oil.
I'm still a newbie with the MG system and I have much to learn.
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I got cut off in mid post when the board went down
We're in agreement on the hours/miles/fuel issue it appears.
None of my suggestions mean that you wait until the filter is plugged ..just pointing out what a plugged filter would produce in effect. It's different with those who install it with a Permacool sandwich. They're always going to see 2 PSID across both the filters. Many remove the restrictors ..and they see a variable flow depending on tp saturation. More will flow @ 2PSID when it's new ...less when it's saturated.
On your installation, however, the filter, when new, has higher flow potential ..but it's muted by the restrictor. So .. the flow would appear somewhat flat. The restrictor elongates and squashes the flow curve. Once the restrictor isn't seeing (as) high (a) pressure, it's losing flow. That's how some setup a "time to change" light. They move the restrictor outboard and put a sender on it. When the light comes on ..it's time to change it. A pressure gauge works too. You will see a given pressure when it's new ...then when that starts to decay, you know that the restrictive orifice's ability to pass the oil making its way through the tp roll is increasing ..that the oil making its way through the tp roll is decreasing.
Just trying to help you get the best bang for the buck
We're in agreement on the hours/miles/fuel issue it appears.
None of my suggestions mean that you wait until the filter is plugged ..just pointing out what a plugged filter would produce in effect. It's different with those who install it with a Permacool sandwich. They're always going to see 2 PSID across both the filters. Many remove the restrictors ..and they see a variable flow depending on tp saturation. More will flow @ 2PSID when it's new ...less when it's saturated.
On your installation, however, the filter, when new, has higher flow potential ..but it's muted by the restrictor. So .. the flow would appear somewhat flat. The restrictor elongates and squashes the flow curve. Once the restrictor isn't seeing (as) high (a) pressure, it's losing flow. That's how some setup a "time to change" light. They move the restrictor outboard and put a sender on it. When the light comes on ..it's time to change it. A pressure gauge works too. You will see a given pressure when it's new ...then when that starts to decay, you know that the restrictive orifice's ability to pass the oil making its way through the tp roll is increasing ..that the oil making its way through the tp roll is decreasing.
Just trying to help you get the best bang for the buck
I want the oil to have a viscosity that feels like new oil. If I rub a little in the palm of my hand I want to see a clean oily film. I want the oil to feel slick. My 37 Studebaker book says to change the filter when it starts looking dirty on the oil depth gauge. They had a lot better filters in those days and they were usually after market. Cars didn't normally come with oil filters unless you ordered them with filters. It was a mistake to change the filter after the oil got dirty or the filter clogged. It is always better to change the filter before the oil gets dirty. I think people try to make a low tech thing like oil filters high tech. It's like thinking about oil soaking thru a bale of cotton or being being forced thru a half dozen bed sheets.
One advantage to sandwich adapters is they allow the oil to soak thru at it's own pace. A smaller orifice works but it might clog. It could also be too restricted in cold weather. I have sent filters to northern Canada and Norway, all with sandwich adapters. I would like to get some feedback on those.
One advantage to sandwich adapters is they allow the oil to soak thru at it's own pace. A smaller orifice works but it might clog. It could also be too restricted in cold weather. I have sent filters to northern Canada and Norway, all with sandwich adapters. I would like to get some feedback on those.
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