Torsional stiffness, Silverado vs F series, TEST

[The Artillerist]

This is old, and has likely been discussed on this site before, but still a very vivid and revealing video about torsional rigidity attributes of vehicles. Silverado is a class above Ford F in this specific case!

 

[dishdude]

My favorite was the Tundra.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

The only place you’d ever duplicate that level of torsion is off road, and if you’re taking a dually through stuff like that all bets are off. But yeah, that video’s at least 4+ years old. I’m sure my ‘19 F150 has some flex too but as long as the tailgate doesn’t bind, the ride is nice enough.

Moral of the story: play stupid games with your $90+k truck, win stupid prizes.

 

[The Artillerist]

My favorite was the Tundra.

Supreme!

 

[IndyIan]

Some engineer should chime in here, but I think making a ladder frame stiffer, also leads to using stronger steel alloys which are also more brittle and can't take many extreme load cycles, which leads to more catastrophic frame failures?

I'd like to see a solid engineering explanation on why ladder frames are still used in light duty trucks at all? Must be still cheaper and potentially hard to convince the customer base?

 

[dnewton3]

All things are a compromise.

The flex in the Ford frame may make for a difficult time to open the tailgate while in that bind, but then it also allows the Ford to keep it's suspension in contact with the ground for more thrust because of the frame articulation. As the Chevy has very little twist in the frame, and not much suspension articulation, it actually loses ground contact sooner and for longer duration.

I'm not saying one is better than another. I have owned both Ford and Chevy trucks and I have my preferences.

As a counter punch (so to speak) there's a good video of the new 10spd transmissions being reviewed by Randy's Transmission. They do a teardown of the GM "Allison" 10L vs the Ford 10R in the HD trucks. The Ford trans is much beefier in many aspects. You can search the video, but I cannot link it here due to some minor profanity in the video.


My point? There is no perfect truck. All things are a culmination of compromises. The "best truck" is the one that fits the individual's needs with the least detriments in his/her personal application. As many applications vary, so will the perception of what's "best".

 

[The Artillerist]

All things are a compromise.

The flex in the Ford frame may make for a difficult time to open the tailgate while in that bind, but then it also allows the Ford to keep it's suspension in contact with the ground for more thrust because of the frame articulation. As the Chevy has very little twist in the frame, and not much suspension articulation, it actually loses ground contact sooner and for longer duration.

I'm not saying one is better than another. I have owned both Ford and Chevy trucks and I have my preferences.

As a counter punch (so to speak) there's a good video of the new 10spd transmissions being reviewed by Randy's Transmission. They do a teardown of the GM "Allison" 10L vs the Ford 10R in the HD trucks. The Ford trans is much beefier in many aspects. You can search the video, but I cannot link it here due to some minor profanity in the video.


My point? There is no perfect truck. All things are a culmination of compromises. The "best truck" is the one that fits the individual's needs with the least detriments in his/her personal application. As many applications vary, so will the perception of what's "best".

See post #2 in this very save thread. Stiffer frame aids suspension, not the opposite

 

[D60]

That's an '11-16 SuperDuty.

Just like horsepower wars, manufacturers leap frog each other in chassis build every few years.

Case in point: the '08 SuperDuty chassis underwent some fairly significant advances, putting GM on their heels. In '11 GM beefed up their HD chassis to be comparable or maybe better.

In '17 all Ford trucks went to an entirely new platform. No idea if it's stiffer, but almost surely.

TL;DR: if "your" brand isn't the best [insert genital measuring category here] today, wait a few years and it will be, until it's not again.

Also, 2016 and older is arguably ancient as we approach 2024, so unless one is specifically shopping '11-16 SuperDutys that's just old data with little reflection on today's offerings.

 

[dnewton3]

See post #2 in this very save thread. Stiffer frame aids suspension, not the opposite

Total articulation of the tires is a combo of both frame and suspension movement. My point is that a stiffer frame does have disadvantages. Now, maybe those disadvantages don't mean much in someone's application. But it may be in someone else's application.

A stiffer frame which restricts frame movement must be compensated by more suspension movement. That in turn can lead to more lateral sway with leaf-spring suspensions.

Also, that Ford chassis in the video is not current; the new SD is much different and stiffer.

Every pro has a corresponding con; that was my point.

 

[dnewton3]

...

TL;DR: if "your" brand isn't the best [insert genital measuring category here] today, wait a few years and it will be, until it's not again.

Exactly. Every generation of new vehicle usurps the previous one, both of the same brand and competitors.

The new SD chassis is stiffer than the current GM one. Until the GM one is again updated ....

 

[JWC86]

As already stated, this is a situation where one OEM makes a better product than the previous generation and it goes back and forth every few years.

Fords response to the GM having a stiffer frame at the time was a total redo in 2017 that was 24 times stiffer than the 2016, yes... 24 times stiffer. They used 95% "high strength steel" as opposed to only 15% on the 2016.

As someone that was a GM HD truck owner and user for almost 20 years, then switched to a F350 in 2020, I much prefer the Ford off-road and I do quite a bit off-road with the truck. For mostly highway trucks I would suggest the GM.

 

[Exhaustgases]

Some engineer should chime in here, but I think making a ladder frame stiffer, also leads to using stronger steel alloys which are also more brittle and can't take many extreme load cycles, which leads to more catastrophic frame failures?

I'd like to see a solid engineering explanation on why ladder frames are still used in light duty trucks at all? Must be still cheaper and potentially hard to convince the customer base?

Maybe same reason the big class 8 trucks have them?

So what other frame style would be better? A truss style, with a roll cage? Or your thinking a unibody pickup truck?

 

[IndyIan]

Maybe same reason the big class 8 trucks have them?

So what other frame style would be better? A truss style, with a roll cage? Or your thinking a unibody pickup truck?

I think the only real advantages of ladder frames is that they are cheap to make, (if you don't need extreme lightness or stiffness), relatively tough(if you let them flex), and can easily be made different lengths for different body, axle, and bed configurations.
Anything used off road in competition needs the strength to weight ratio and ease of custom construction of a space frame, and the next level in strength to weight ratio is a monocoque or unit body frame, which do become cheap once you scale up to make a 100's of thousands.
Given now that 95% of 1/2 ton trucks are now all crewcab short boxes, I would think they could make a 1/2ton unit body truck that would outperform a ladder frame in every almost measure for those 95% of buyers. A unit body could be made easily to have a hitch and plow attachment points as strong as a ladder frame.

 

[nthach]

Supreme!

A friend has a Tundra, I can see his camper shell move with the bed over bumps.

Toyota’s choice to go with a “tri-shape” frame with a boxed front section, a partly boxed center and then a C-channel rear for the 2nd gen(2014-2020 could be a “generation” but it’s really a refresh of the 2007-2013 model) is boggling. The Tacoma as well as the current 3rd gen Tundra are fully-boxed.

 

[MSCH]

I know that comparison has been around for a long time... but its worth pointing out the frames on the Supper Duty's were designed around the yeat 2000 or so... whereas that late model Chevrolet was stiffened up sometime in the 2010's/.

.,of course the new style Ford Super Duty also is stiffened up... so its just one of those old doesn't not really apply video's.

 

[meep]

C-channel frames can be specifically chosen to isolate the cab from rowdy loads such as towing NVH. My tundra was fully boxed under the cab while being open C-channel under the bed. Yes the bed rocked some, but it was also stiffly sprung. Softer springs would have reduced that.

the 18 f150 has a much stiffer frame, which I prefer for on road hustle. It does articulate more than I’d expected when off-road taking something like a steep ditch at an angle. As long as it stays flat and true when all 4 paws are on the ground I’m good with it. The handling as it is, is superb for a truck. It has rear anti-sway bar, adjustable rear shocks, and oem 18” wheels and tires. As it is, I really enjoy driving it. It is as precise as any of the unibody cars I’ve had. (note, not as smooth or settled, but precise).

 

[The Artillerist]

Total articulation of the tires is a combo of both frame and suspension movement. My point is that a stiffer frame does have disadvantages. Now, maybe those disadvantages don't mean much in someone's application. But it may be in someone else's application.

A stiffer frame which restricts frame movement must be compensated by more suspension movement. That in turn can lead to more lateral sway with leaf-spring suspensions.

Also, that Ford chassis in the video is not current; the new SD is much different and stiffer.

Every pro has a corresponding con; that was my point.

Pal, if less structural rigidity is good, why is ever new generation from each automaker is getting structurally stiffer?

Also, neither truck maker is offering a variant with less structural rigidity “to suit a particular set of needs”… correct me if I’m wrong

 

[LongTime_Lurker]

The bamboo that bends is stronger than the oak that resists

 

[The Artillerist]

TL;DR: if "your" brand isn't the best [insert genital measuring category here] today, wait a few years and it will be, until it's not again.

That’s understood. I posted this for, in my opinion an interesting visual demonstration of a structural rigidity. The video is unambiguously a Chevy promo of their new at the time offering vs competition

I’m not a truck person and never owned one.

 

[meep]

while in my mind I want my vehicles torsionally stiff, admittedly, airplane wings flex too…